Ideas for community balance patch/mod
You feel like a battlecruiser is too weak or a race too strong? Go ahead and discuss it here :)
posted on June 8th, 2012, 9:36 pm
This is a first attempt to collect changes for an intermediate community patch for the current FO version. Reason for the patch are inbalances that are mostly expressed through superior strats that dominated tournaments and many 1v1 and team games.
The patch/mod will be about changing stats (values) only. No implementation of new stuff.
The changes should address balancing issues we currently have experienced since the last patch.
Finding out suitable numbers will take time and testing as well as open discussion of changes. In order to start the discussion I throw in some ideas what could be changed and I hope that one or the other participates in the discussion.
The coming ideas are based on my own observations and experience during 1v1 and team games.
The ideas cover 3 out of 5 races.
Klingons are not covered because they seem to be balanced quite well apart from some minor things.
Borg are always a special case (ship count) and I would like suggest that we keep them as they are for the moment and try to change the other races first.
-------------------
+ increase, overall stronger
- decrease, overall weaker
--------------------
Race (overall intention)
ship name, changed stat (+/-)
explaination
--------------------
Romulan (more diversity in ship selection i.e. 3+ type fleets, reduction of spam)
- Miner, speed+
More options to retreat miners, less extrem results (offense or defense with ships)
- Talon refit, speed-
drawback for super cloak detect
- Rhienn, supply+
reduce spam especially for Helev
- Leavhal, build time+
reduce early rush and increase time for crit mass
- Torpedo/Disruptor Refit (probably higher supply cost for DR)
make torpedo refit better option
- Generix Chassi (speed +, defense -)
better competing with smaller Rom chassis
- Serkas (more range to stop micro issues, less sensor)
make them more useful
- Eris, supply-
make them more useful
- D'deridex, bit less dil
better late game
Federation (nerf Fedroll, increase ship diversity, turreting reduced, defensive in early game through ships)
- Repair ship, defense
more useful in battle
- Saber, supply+
less spam
- Monsoon, build time+
less spam
- Intrepid, cost+, tech level+
less mixed fleet in addition to SFC ships
- Excelsior 2, build time+
less spam + need for Saber
- SFC, supply+
enforce earlier supply buying
- Turrets, build time+
reduce mining defense, force to spend resources earlier
Dominion (more weaker ships in general, more diversity, i.e. 3+ type fleets, keen small prototype use)
- Builder, speed -
compensate earlier supply economy
- Bug, build time-, passive out
meat shield, core fleet
- Bomber, prototype+, build time -
improve relation with S2
- S2, prototype+ , build time +
less spam
- C11, prototype+, defense +
much more useful
- Breen, speed +, passive out
easier to handle, no super Borg killer
- B8, prototype +, offense -, defense+
improve transporting
- B5, prototype-,
early rush less attractive
- Breen Battleship, prototype-, speed+
more useful in late game, also considering cost
- Ket. Synth., cost-, defense-
earlier supply economy, weake point structure
The patch/mod will be about changing stats (values) only. No implementation of new stuff.
The changes should address balancing issues we currently have experienced since the last patch.
Finding out suitable numbers will take time and testing as well as open discussion of changes. In order to start the discussion I throw in some ideas what could be changed and I hope that one or the other participates in the discussion.
The coming ideas are based on my own observations and experience during 1v1 and team games.
The ideas cover 3 out of 5 races.
Klingons are not covered because they seem to be balanced quite well apart from some minor things.
Borg are always a special case (ship count) and I would like suggest that we keep them as they are for the moment and try to change the other races first.
-------------------
+ increase, overall stronger
- decrease, overall weaker
--------------------
Race (overall intention)
ship name, changed stat (+/-)
explaination
--------------------
Romulan (more diversity in ship selection i.e. 3+ type fleets, reduction of spam)
- Miner, speed+
More options to retreat miners, less extrem results (offense or defense with ships)
- Talon refit, speed-
drawback for super cloak detect
- Rhienn, supply+
reduce spam especially for Helev
- Leavhal, build time+
reduce early rush and increase time for crit mass
- Torpedo/Disruptor Refit (probably higher supply cost for DR)
make torpedo refit better option
- Generix Chassi (speed +, defense -)
better competing with smaller Rom chassis
- Serkas (more range to stop micro issues, less sensor)
make them more useful
- Eris, supply-
make them more useful
- D'deridex, bit less dil
better late game
Federation (nerf Fedroll, increase ship diversity, turreting reduced, defensive in early game through ships)
- Repair ship, defense
more useful in battle
- Saber, supply+
less spam
- Monsoon, build time+
less spam
- Intrepid, cost+, tech level+
less mixed fleet in addition to SFC ships
- Excelsior 2, build time+
less spam + need for Saber
- SFC, supply+
enforce earlier supply buying
- Turrets, build time+
reduce mining defense, force to spend resources earlier
Dominion (more weaker ships in general, more diversity, i.e. 3+ type fleets, keen small prototype use)
- Builder, speed -
compensate earlier supply economy
- Bug, build time-, passive out
meat shield, core fleet
- Bomber, prototype+, build time -
improve relation with S2
- S2, prototype+ , build time +
less spam
- C11, prototype+, defense +
much more useful
- Breen, speed +, passive out
easier to handle, no super Borg killer
- B8, prototype +, offense -, defense+
improve transporting
- B5, prototype-,
early rush less attractive
- Breen Battleship, prototype-, speed+
more useful in late game, also considering cost
- Ket. Synth., cost-, defense-
earlier supply economy, weake point structure
posted on June 8th, 2012, 9:55 pm
NOte: its refered to as 'Hybrid Warpin Rush', Fed-roll is what happens when you don't play corectly aginst it.
And the problem ii have with you fed edits, is that you sugjest we ner EVERYTHING early game for them. Ships, Warpin And turrets, they need at least one to have anychance at all.
To icrease romulan use of ships, you'd probly only have to take away the leahvals uber regen, and and boost the gererix speed abiet.
Other than that your looking at like 3000+ ODF edits for the rest of it.
And the problem ii have with you fed edits, is that you sugjest we ner EVERYTHING early game for them. Ships, Warpin And turrets, they need at least one to have anychance at all.
To icrease romulan use of ships, you'd probly only have to take away the leahvals uber regen, and and boost the gererix speed abiet.
Other than that your looking at like 3000+ ODF edits for the rest of it.
posted on June 8th, 2012, 11:01 pm
I think this is a great idea to take the numbers in our own hands and we should've done this half a year ago already. But before we can work out the fine details we need to be able to actually do that kind of changes. Do you, or does anyone else here have the needed tool and knowledge to edit the mass of files that would need to be changed?
Maybe we should concentrate on changing the most important factors first instead of changing half of the units a faction has at once. For instance, how hard would it be to just nerf the laevahl, monsoon and ktinga spam?
Maybe we should concentrate on changing the most important factors first instead of changing half of the units a faction has at once. For instance, how hard would it be to just nerf the laevahl, monsoon and ktinga spam?
posted on June 8th, 2012, 11:07 pm
_Zap_ wrote:I think this is a great idea to take the numbers in our own hands and we should've done this half a year ago already. But before we can work out the fine details we need to be able to actually do that kind of changes. Do you, or does anyone else here have the needed tool and knowledge to edit the mass of files that would need to be changed?
Maybe we should concentrate on changing the most important factors first instead of changing half of the units a faction has at once. For instance, how hard would it be to just nerf the laevahl, monsoon and ktinga spam?
Nerfing the Leahval Would take about 10 edits... i couple to the build time, a couple to the cost of each of its abilitys.
Monsoon, Depending on the typ of nerf you want, probly only 2 at the very least
And ktinga spam, would just need a couple aswell....
So your looking at about 16 edits at most for a small nerf against those vessels.
posted on June 9th, 2012, 6:49 am
I would also see at least one or two changes for the Dominion since they are the weakest faction right now.
How about changing the bug and the S2 first and maybe the ketracel synth?
How about changing the bug and the S2 first and maybe the ketracel synth?
posted on June 9th, 2012, 4:46 pm
just half down the construction time of the dominion sensor station, that doesn't affect multiplayer to much and give earlier cloak detect
further we should ask the devs to include the things that might really help to the next little patch (like Tungle API), no one wants the community splitted to one side who use these changes and one side who doesn't use them
further we should ask the devs to include the things that might really help to the next little patch (like Tungle API), no one wants the community splitted to one side who use these changes and one side who doesn't use them
posted on June 9th, 2012, 6:44 pm
Note: you should probly know that i'm not in favor of this little project, and i won't be modding in you behalf, i've got my own mod to worry aboout. but none the less... i will give some logistical support.
That said, i think taking the passsive from the bug and decreasing its costs or buid time would be a huge mistake (same for the breen cruiser). that would turn it into the bug(or cruiser) we had a few patches ago. the insanely spamable one. The fact of the matter is doms are spammers and their relys on spam to make them strong... forcing them into ship diversity would weaken them into oblivion... as their prototype system would cripple them
That said, i think taking the passsive from the bug and decreasing its costs or buid time would be a huge mistake (same for the breen cruiser). that would turn it into the bug(or cruiser) we had a few patches ago. the insanely spamable one. The fact of the matter is doms are spammers and their relys on spam to make them strong... forcing them into ship diversity would weaken them into oblivion... as their prototype system would cripple them
posted on June 10th, 2012, 8:46 am
The idea for Dominion is to give them a ship that is producable in masses but hast fairly high supply cost if spammed and no distinct strength (no passive). The spam qualities of the small yard ships are reduced because the Ketracel economy has a mayor drawback (slower ships and weak synth. structure). If it is necessary, the speed of the Bug can be reduced a bit to prevent annoying kiting.
Diversity comes into play through prototypes that are same cost as they are now but between 50-100% stronger in defense (and maybe offense). This makes them durable to participate in offensive. Also 2 prototypes are no problem for Dominion economy if you ask me.
@sensor station
I'm not sure if the sensor station should be made cheaper without increasing cost of the sensor research. Cloak detect has HUGE influence on multiplayer under all circumstances cause you can take out a whole fleet with good pinging and an unaware enemy. It would also strengthen the defense of Dominion leading to better protected expansions, which is what I would like to avoid...
Diversity comes into play through prototypes that are same cost as they are now but between 50-100% stronger in defense (and maybe offense). This makes them durable to participate in offensive. Also 2 prototypes are no problem for Dominion economy if you ask me.
@sensor station
I'm not sure if the sensor station should be made cheaper without increasing cost of the sensor research. Cloak detect has HUGE influence on multiplayer under all circumstances cause you can take out a whole fleet with good pinging and an unaware enemy. It would also strengthen the defense of Dominion leading to better protected expansions, which is what I would like to avoid...
posted on June 10th, 2012, 10:06 pm
Your list of changes for the Federation looks like that which would be proposed by someone who hates them. You're trying to "increase ship diversity" on a race that has a pretty poor ship selection in early and mid game, and "nerfing the Fed Roll" is an asinine objective. "FedRoll" can be done by any race that gets a suitable mass of ships; all the player has to do is preserve their fleet while constructing more.
As some constructive feedback, increasing the supply cost of Starfleet Command isn't a horrible idea. I would suggest to 125 for a couple of reasons:
1) This is half of a supply buy.
2) The median supply value of a standard warp-in is just shy of 65, so it would take two standard warp-ins to start getting a net supply benefit.
3) Much more than that and you're going to be forcing the Fed to buy supply twice to buy SFC. But hey, if your intent is to nerf Feds out of competitiveness, go right ahead.
As some constructive feedback, increasing the supply cost of Starfleet Command isn't a horrible idea. I would suggest to 125 for a couple of reasons:
1) This is half of a supply buy.
2) The median supply value of a standard warp-in is just shy of 65, so it would take two standard warp-ins to start getting a net supply benefit.
3) Much more than that and you're going to be forcing the Fed to buy supply twice to buy SFC. But hey, if your intent is to nerf Feds out of competitiveness, go right ahead.
posted on June 11th, 2012, 5:01 am
I really hate to be the person to say this because I used to hate it when Dom said it to me -
But all of these "issues" are fixed with the new patch because they aren't relevant anymore :
. I didn't want to say that because I didn't want to stifle anyone's creativity, but balance in 3.2.6 is really on an entirely different level than what we're testing right now.
Coming from Dom's biggest pain in the ass (me
), I can tell you that we're all working really hard to iron out all balance-adjustments as we go 
.
But all of these "issues" are fixed with the new patch because they aren't relevant anymore :
. I didn't want to say that because I didn't want to stifle anyone's creativity, but balance in 3.2.6 is really on an entirely different level than what we're testing right now.Coming from Dom's biggest pain in the ass (me
), I can tell you that we're all working really hard to iron out all balance-adjustments as we go .posted on June 11th, 2012, 5:54 am
Boggz: if the next patch is due out in anything less than four months, then yeah, a community balance mod is probably not worth the effort. However, the limited evidence out there suggests that it's more like a six month wait, possibly longer, in which case this is very much worth the effort as a way to keep the community engaged.
posted on June 12th, 2012, 5:59 pm
I suggest that the first round of changes covers the following ships:
Leavhal - buildtime increase by 20% and repair time increased by 50%
Rhienn - supply cost increased by 20%
Monsoon - build time increased by 20%
SFC - supply cost increased by 20%
S2 - buildtime increased by 20%
Bug - passive removed, buildtime decreased by 10%
What do you think?
Leavhal - buildtime increase by 20% and repair time increased by 50%
Rhienn - supply cost increased by 20%
Monsoon - build time increased by 20%
SFC - supply cost increased by 20%
S2 - buildtime increased by 20%
Bug - passive removed, buildtime decreased by 10%
What do you think?
posted on June 12th, 2012, 9:06 pm
Are you going to remove the ADAI supply surcharge from the bug's cost?
posted on June 13th, 2012, 6:46 am
I would keep it the same as it is now. The removed passive reduces the weakness vs supports which was extrem concerning Rom and Borg. The bug should be more durable in these cases and less shipcost would result in more spam of these ships. Does this sound reasonable?
posted on June 13th, 2012, 7:12 am
It does not for me. ADAI is a very powerful passive, enabling the Bug to be a decent counter to KBQ, Akira, Probes, Griffin, even Qawduij(they tank each other). Without ADAI the Bug would be totally useless imo. Leahval nevertheless has SSEC to counter the bug, even without ADAI. I agree with the build time decrease though, the Dominion needs something to survive early game. I think C-11 needs more work than anything else, defense of one point above the Bug could be a way to go.
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