Improving the Teutoburg

posted on May 14th, 2013, 9:08 am

This is a bit off topic but @myles

I have been a little confused about that, we know that the members of the federation all have their own past and ship designs, I never understood really if starfleet is earths ships, or the federation, i feel like the individual members would still make their own ships?

yeah the show wasn't very forthcoming on this sort of detail. in tng era we never saw any ship used in combat for the federation that wasn't a starfleet ship. not even when they were getting hammered in the dominion war.

the conclusion i draw is that the only federation ships capable of military combat are starfleet's ships. and that any other ships are privately funded/built/operated. and hence they don't have military technology. mirrors private naval ships IRL today. no merchant/private ship could provide a serious fight to a military ship.

i believe the federation operates as one big analogue to a sovereign nation IRL. they share law "federation law". i'm assuming they share "fiscal" policy and starfleet serves as the sole military for all planets. so that all the planets put their resources together to build starfleet ships.

so vulcan/andorian starship tech may still exist in tng. but all the vulcan military tech people would be funded by and working for starfleet's ship design groups. no large state funding would support private starship development, so vulcan starship tech would be old or just hand-me-downs from starfleet. especially in combat tech. perhaps starfleet is more lax on giving private shipbuilders engine designs.

posted on May 14th, 2013, 1:52 pm

I'm sure that Starfleet was designated as the Federation's exploration and defence arm in the Articles. As such, the navies of the individual members would have been gradually mothballed as expertise and technologies were integrated. I like to think that the Constitution class was the first major class that came from that collaboration.

We do know, though, that individual planets still maintain merchant navies into the TNG era -- the purloined Vulcan ships used by the Romulans in Unification demonstrates that.

posted on May 14th, 2013, 3:07 pm

the last time we saw a ship on screen identified as "vulcan" was in tng. even in ds9, a ship with an all vulcan crew and vulcan name (the t'kumbra), that ship was a starfleet nebula class.

While it's admittedly not seen from the outside, there was the Vulcan Science ship T'Vran in DS9. We only saw the bridge and not-Starfleet captain, but it was identified as a Vulcan ship.

posted on May 14th, 2013, 3:19 pm

While it's admittedly not seen from the outside, there was the Vulcan Science ship T'Vran in DS9. We only saw the bridge and not-Starfleet captain, but it was identified as a Vulcan ship.

good point, under my headcanon, i assume that this ship was non military, a private/merchant ship doing some exploring.

posted on May 14th, 2013, 3:51 pm

In the show, it was sent to explore the Gamma Quadrent before returning to Vulcan. So your headcanon mostly matches up, though it probably worked for the Science Council (or whatever the DS9-era counterpart is).

posted on May 14th, 2013, 4:43 pm

All in all I like the Teuto and I use it, but maybe not in the way it was designed to.

I found this as a "missclicked" thing...

I had a Teuto, together with a Ventura and some E2's as backing.

I wanted to destroy a Dom workership, that was building a perimeter.
But I missed on it while clicking. and the Teuto attacked another vessel.

This attack pulled the AI's fleet outta it's base and into the weapons rage of my e2's.
Funny fact, my Teuto was called to get to my next yard - it was surrounded by the enemy fleet and didn't get a single hit.

I tryed it again in another game vs AI and it worked again.
For me the Teuto is really a strategic vessel.

Maybe this is a second way to use a Teuto.

posted on May 14th, 2013, 7:05 pm

You know, the Teuto has a lot of torpedoes in it... if you want to improve it, why not give it the ability to detonate them all if its health drops below 10-25%? Maybe double the supply penalty for this type of death and not possible when using one of the specials.

Just as strong, fast, un-durable and turret-specialized as it currently is but also capable of taking a few lesser ships with it when it dies.

posted on May 15th, 2013, 3:44 am

Instead of just having a ship designed solely around taking out turrets which is just silly to begin with,

on the contrary, every race needs something to hurt turtling. otherwise turtling would be a cheese strat.

Make the Teutoburg have very high damage and normal defense

that role already exists for the feds, it's called the phalanx.

I would agree but you only get two of them (three if you veteranize them) which is fairly pointless to use against installations. If the Feds are going to have a long range ship then it should be one that they can mass produce like the Romulans and Klingons have. If you are only going to get a couple of them then they should be alot more useful than just a turret smasher.

I have to wonder if the Feds really even need a turret smasher anyways. The Feds have the best turrets by far especially if you pick Mason and since Fed ships have higher health, resistance whatever their defense is they last longer against the enemies weaker turrets. They already have powerful long range ships in the Excelsior 2s.

I should also specify that I HATE the Phalanx. Its ugly as hell and its special weapon is virtually useless.

posted on May 15th, 2013, 8:43 am

I would agree but you only get two of them (three if you veteranize them) which is fairly pointless to use against installations. If the Feds are going to have a long range ship then it should be one that they can mass produce like the Romulans and Klingons have. If you are only going to get a couple of them then they should be alot more useful than just a turret smasher.

1) 2 ships is enough. the last thing you'd want is the enemy mass producing an entire fleet that can outrange you so easily. that would lead to cheese strats.

2) the romulans and klinks don't have anything with range of teutoburg. the romulan serkas has a smaller weapons range, but still artillery. it is balanced by high costs. mass producing serkas is suicide. they are used in packs to either take down turrets or just generally harass the enemy as they have cloak. and nobody builds the (artillery range) veqlaragh, even though they should do, it's a fun ship. i once used a fleet of them to continually disable my enemy's engines and string out his fleet. bit cheesy, but worth a laugh.

I have to wonder if the Feds really even need a turret smasher anyways. The Feds have the best turrets by far especially if you pick Mason and since Fed ships have higher health, resistance whatever their defense is they last longer against the enemies weaker turrets. They already have powerful long range ships in the Excelsior 2s.

they're certainly the race that needs anti turret weapons the least with all their torps, but every race needs something.

I should also specify that I HATE the Phalanx. Its ugly as hell and its special weapon is virtually useless.

tough, it's still in the game until a patch removes it. if you decide not to build a ship simply because it's ugly then you deserve to lose.

posted on May 15th, 2013, 4:26 pm

I would agree but you only get two of them (three if you veteranize them) which is fairly pointless to use against installations. If the Feds are going to have a long range ship then it should be one that they can mass produce like the Romulans and Klingons have. If you are only going to get a couple of them then they should be alot more useful than just a turret smasher.

1) 2 ships is enough. the last thing you'd want is the enemy mass producing an entire fleet that can outrange you so easily. that would lead to cheese strats.

2) the romulans and klinks don't have anything with range of teutoburg. the romulan serkas has a smaller weapons range, but still artillery. it is balanced by high costs. mass producing serkas is suicide. they are used in packs to either take down turrets or just generally harass the enemy as they have cloak. and nobody builds the (artillery range) veqlaragh, even though they should do, it's a fun ship. i once used a fleet of them to continually disable my enemy's engines and string out his fleet. bit cheesy, but worth a laugh. Some European countries got together and made that Eurofighter a few years back.

I have to wonder if the Feds really even need a turret smasher anyways. The Feds have the best turrets by far especially if you pick Mason and since Fed ships have higher health, resistance whatever their defense is they last longer against the enemies weaker turrets. They already have powerful long range ships in the Excelsior 2s.

they're certainly the race that needs anti turret weapons the least with all their torps, but every race needs something.

I should also specify that I HATE the Phalanx. Its ugly as hell and its special weapon is virtually useless.

tough, it's still in the game until a patch removes it. if you decide not to build a ship simply because it's ugly then you deserve to lose.

The Serkas are a hell of alot more useful than the Teutoburgs. Two Serkas definitely out damage two Teutoburgs and you can mass produce them. They even make great defensive ships because you can park them just behind a turret or facility and they will hammer any ships that come to attack it. I tried that with Teutoburgs but they miss to much to be useful in that category. The E2s are much better for that.

I have found Serkas extremely useful when playing against the Feds. I just send in other ships first to take the hits from the turrets and then let the Serkas hammer the turrets from behind the line. They also wipe out mining vessels extremely fast. I can't do that with the Teutorburg because I can only have two of them, they miss and they don't have AOE effect. Even if the Serkas misses it can still cause lots of damage to nearby ships. You don't even have to mass produce them, just four of them cause massive amounts of damage when you direct their fire on something. It says alot when I fear Serkas alot more than the Warbirds or even the lone Tavara especially in group battles. Its a good thing that the AI targets them first.

Also artillery is plenty enough. Unless you are building turrets all around your mining bases there are different angles of attack. I always have cases when going up against the Romulans where some Serkas is destroying my mining base or a shipyard because they are attacking it outside of the range of my turrets.

As has been pointed out no one bothers with them even on multiplayer and they are useless on singleplayer. Why would you pick one when you can pick the Descent which is faster, more accurate, so it probably does the same damage if not more over time, and it has great defense and a very useful special ability.

Honestly with the E2s I have just never really even needed anything with artillery range. Once I get Defiants that is all I build at that point and Defiants just smash through everyone's turrets and they are short range. I especially love Defiants against those "outposts" that the Dominion builds.

In regards to the Starfleet ship production issue I just figured that it was similar to NATO. NATO counties often share resources and will work together on projects and have uniform codes so that something that works in France will be useful in Canada ie they all use the same ammunition. France Italy and some other euro countries built the Eurofighter together.

posted on May 15th, 2013, 4:53 pm

The Serkas are a hell of alot more useful than the Teutoburgs.

i agree, you seem to have missed my point, which was that being able to make unlimited teutoburgs would be insane because of their huge range.

I can't do that with the Teutorburg because I can only have two of them, they miss and they don't have AOE effect.

no shit, and i can't destroy an aircraft carrier with a cricket bat. ships have differing roles, the serkas and teutoburg don't have identical roles. this isn't total annihilation. you can only have 2 teutoburgs, and they can't cloak. they should never be used for destroying miners. you have other ships to do that.

Also artillery is plenty enough. Unless you are building turrets all around your mining bases there are different angles of attack. I always have cases when going up against the Romulans where some Serkas is destroying my mining base or a shipyard because they are attacking it outside of the range of my turrets.

As has been pointed out no one bothers with them even on multiplayer and they are useless on singleplayer. Why would you pick one when you can pick the Descent which is faster, more accurate, so it probably does the same damage if not more over time, and it has great defense and a very useful special ability.

Honestly with the E2s I have just never really even needed anything with artillery range.

no, artillery isn't enough. the teutoburg is there to give the feds an option against dedicated turtlers, we're talking about masses of torpedo platforms or perimeters. this sort of strat is very rare, 1 because it's boring and people will hate you for it, 2 because there are very often ships that can outrange your turret. without the teutoburg, the feds wouldn't have any ship with even artillery range. the teutoburg's mere existence is a threat to turtlers, it's very rarely that it will be built, yes it's uninteresting, yes it barely meets its task, but it's a necessary ship to have available. it's existence ensures it never needs to be warped in.

in a normal match, there is no turtling, just a reasonable use of turrets. at which point the feds are fine as they have lots of torps.

Why would you pick one when you can pick the Descent which is faster, more accurate, so it probably does the same damage if not more over time, and it has great defense and a very useful special ability.

because the descent isn't meant for turret busting, it's weapons range is only medium. every torpedo/phaser turret will get a full volley off before the descent can even return fire.

Once I get Defiants that is all I build at that point and Defiants just smash through everyone's turrets and they are short range. I especially love Defiants against those "outposts" that the Dominion builds.

defiant spam sucks against turrets, they only have pulses, which generally do less damage against stations. yeah if you have enough of them you can beat anything. but the same is true for 1000 sabres. it would take fewer e2s to take down the same amount of turrets, use a few defiants for their specials and to tank. another weakness of the defiant is low crew, the borg will exploit that if you spam only one ship type.

posted on May 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm

SO true...

Teutoburg needs some remake because its damned USELESS.

properties :

Bad: low damage, high miss chance, slow, die fast,

Good: range ?, good looking, great voice in game



Sorry but its so USELESS.

This forum tread show how much are people unhappy with it.

One more time USELESS.


let it stay in game but change it somehow PLEASE !

posted on May 20th, 2013, 2:41 pm

perhaps it could have its synergies from all these or similar to boost it?

Sensor Nebula,Full Scan increases its range
Canaveral Sensor Synergy hit chance
Remore Vector Calculation improves its targeting ability (targeting weak points for more damage)
Nova Fleet Supply boosts its volley amount

posted on May 20th, 2013, 2:48 pm

perhaps it could have its synergies from all these or similar to boost it?

Sensor Nebula,Full Scan increases its range
Canaveral Sensor Synergy hit chance
Remore Vector Calculation improves its targeting ability (targeting weak points for more damage)
Nova Fleet Supply boosts its volley amount

that's a lot of synergies, it shouldn't be able to use all of them at the same time, let's not accidentally summon captain planet.

posted on May 20th, 2013, 2:54 pm

that's a lot of synergies, it shouldn't be able to use all of them at the same time, let's not accidentally summon captain planet.

indeed, perhaps only 1 or 2 can be used at any given time