Klingons vs long range; the B'rel

posted on October 27th, 2010, 6:53 am

After my game with Elimagainst Drrrr and CharmeD yesterday  we talked a little about the Klingons abilities to counter long range, since Charmed wiped out my B'rels with Rhienns(multitargeting disruptor - I don't want to stretch that issue here) after a successful beginning. Klingons have 2ship classes which counter long range: their weakest and their strongest class, both of them are short range. Furthermore there is the Sang, which can be quite effective with its own long range weaponry, however it fails against small ships.
Due to the fact that the NeghVar is quite hard to reach techwise, you usually have to go for B'rel or other non-counters when the enemy spams Long range against you. Now I just want to through in some ideas.

I played the B'rel to quite an extent in the last games, I think that ship is often underestimated and quite fine in 3.1.3, however, there are some things that still make it difficult to use.
The build time: A B'rel needs 76sec, that's longer than other races need for their basic ships(Sabre 69, Rhienn 62(!), Bug 59). During that time you won't be able to build K'Vorts and if you don't need K'Vorts it is not very effective to double yard B'Rels imo. You need a lot B'rels to do appropriate damage, 5-8 are usually effective.
I got an  idea on this: Make the B'Rel buildable in starbase or in the other parts of the Field yard, too. I don't think anybody will be concerned about a B'rel spam, as it is useful against miners and long range only. Although ... The other solution would be to just decrease the building time of B'rels.

Another issue: weapon fatigue
It's a nice special, but in my eyes very hard to micro if you want to use it with success(i.e. getting ressources back). Klingons are in need of supplies so you won't give them away for a fast firing B'rel. Immediate ranking up is not that impressive since B'rels also rank up easily without the special. Plus you are left without cloak when using it. My suggestion is to simply take out the supply thing. You are still left without cloak afterwards, what can be very dangerous for fragile B'rels.

Due to disruptor weaponry and low crew the B'rel is not useful against Assims or warbirds. Perhaps it would be useful to have a third class to counter long range, the only ships I can think of are Sangs(since they don't have a passive at all and can be much more effective against cruisers with their torps, you'd still need B'rels for destroyers) or ChonaQs. The latter are actually never used in online play, because of several problems: no cloak, Imperial yard, not very effective. I think with an anti long range passive(or defense against those targets) one could finally give Klingon players a reason to build it(btw it has the same build time of B'rel).

posted on October 27th, 2010, 8:04 am

i'd like the chonaq getting a useful purpose. But the fact it wastes energy firing on ships that are already exploding is a bit annoying.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 8:47 am

maybe the Brel can get both anti LR passives. That way it can stand longer vs LR ships while beeing not op since it gets more damage from SR.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 9:24 am

i dont think thats a stretch, drrr.

It would deal more to lr and receive less. my only worry is that the brel super duper counters lr. But then it would be super weak vs short range.

I'd rather have another klink ship be good vs lr. Sangs and chonaq come to mind.

[Elim]

posted on October 27th, 2010, 10:03 am

Last edited by Elim on October 27th, 2010, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, that was a freakin annoying game  . They both started with rhienns, and stupid elim has gone for S-2s... we won finally. 123 S-2s built 97 lost. Brel's and S-2s are simply not a counter to rhienns, they are very bad aginst regular rhieenns, you need 3:1 numbers to kill a phase plate rhienn, and when they upgrade to distruptorzzz, 7+ distruptors can oneshot fleets of brels and S-2's... and ppl are complaining about the HSA     
(and guess wich is the race that has a counter aginst rhienns that really works)

posted on October 27th, 2010, 11:04 am

(and guess wich is the race that has a counter aginst rhienns that really works)

Borg? 

posted on October 27th, 2010, 11:29 am

The S2 is a good counter vs rhienns, so I vote on Dominion...however not against DisRienns.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 11:54 am

s2 and brel technically counter rhienns. both are small and take full damage from rhienn pulses.

but both are short range, and phase plates removed 80% damage from them, so u will probably never kill a rhienn. disruptor rhienns are later game ships, requiring a tech up to get to, in fleetops they are naturally superior to early game vessels like brel and s2, even though they lose phase plates to soak up the damage.

so in that regard they dont counter brilliantly. and as pointed out the direct damage dealing special of the disruptor rhienns stacks well and really hurts low defence ships like brel and s2.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 12:38 pm

Borg? 

feeeeeeds, lots of ppl underestimate the powa of the monsoon spam

posted on October 27th, 2010, 12:43 pm

monsoons pretty cool. but even they are short range, so its not as clear cut. rhienns will find it difficult to kill your mons, but also your mons will struggle to kill phase plated rhienns.

in a straight mon spam vs rhienn spam i would bet on mons, just. if proxy torp gets used well and venture pings too.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 2:08 pm

Phase Plates is a 30 second ability - no need to hang around and lose ships - and considering it will take the ship another 2 minutes after phase plates are done to regenerate the necessary amount of energy... 

posted on October 27th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Phase Plates is a 30 second ability - no need to hang around and lose ships - and considering it will take the ship another 2 minutes after phase plates are done to regenerate the necessary amount of energy... 

i dont get your point? are u saying mons are super duper vs rhienns, in which case i disagree and think that mons only have a small edge.

most players wait until a rhienn is under fire before triggering phase plates, almost guaranteeing its survival due to 80% damage reduction. mons will still win in the long run as their damage reduction is permanent, but they have to push really hard to keep the rhienn using phase plates until their energy is gone, then push. its difficult to know exactly how many rhienns are left with phase plates and where. and if u let up for a moment they regen their energy and are ready to tank your fire again. good use of proxy torp is a must too, to try get kills before they can use plates.

rhienns will have trouble killing mons too, due to good speed and the passive. but a good decloak on top of the enemy and you should get a kill on a mon or two. then if they let you breath, recharge plates and do it again.

thats why i think mons have a slight edge, but rhienns used with better micro can take that edge away.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 2:56 pm

I'm saying simply what I said. Nothing to do with Monsoons specifically - just that Phase Plates are a temperamental ability. They aren't turned on indefinitely, so use that against your opponent  . Specifically because if you stay cloaked with those Rhienns after using the ability, it'll take you many times as long to recharge - there have been quite a few replays exhibiting this too

posted on October 27th, 2010, 3:06 pm

phase plates are definitely temporary yes, but most people save them until they are under fire. and 30 seconds with 80% of the mons fire doing nothing is very good. easily long enough to get that rhienn away. meaning killing the rhienn is bloody difficult. likewise half the rhienns damage doesnt hurt the mons. so its two fleets struggling to get kills. so instead of the mons steamrolling, they only rickroll slightly have the advantage. mon spam will win in the end, but it wont be decisive nor quick. but by that time both players should have got tired of not killing eachother and mixed their fleets.

posted on October 27th, 2010, 3:59 pm

I'm not too sure about giving the B'rel an anti-long range passive, almost every single Klingon vs Romulan game begins with Rhienns vs B'rels.  The B'rels have much needed Manual Targeting and the Rhienns are the only super-early game Rom ship that can survive it.  The current relationship is delicate, but I think it's beautifully balanced.

I'm starting to like the idea of Sangs getting a long range passive more and more.  Sangs' job is to blob up and kite the enemy, but in order to build a big enough blob you can't build the other, more cost effective battleyard ships.  Giving the Sang +50% attack vs long range would cement their role and give the Klingons a true response to massed long range ships.