How does the Difficult change the strength of the AI
Which race do you like most? What do you like - what you don't like? Discuss it here.
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posted on April 3rd, 2011, 1:54 am
@ mkman, beating AI merciless.
Well, like I said, I've never beat AI Borg merciless... although I haven't tried it in recent weeks. Maybe someone else can help you with that.
As for other races... the next hardest is probably the Romulans, and I've only beaten them a few times on merciless. (Mainly because of 1 sec cloak, they are soooo hard to kill. They will fight right until shields drop then just cloak and run, you lose all your ships but they dont lose many)
I generally don't change anything on the screen... at first I did, double res, or adjust handicap, but you don't have to, although it would make it easier. It is doable to just select your race, and select another race merciless, and launch the game on normal settings.
Main thing is the map lay out. You don't stand much of a chance on smaller maps. I don't go smaller than 16 X 16 K. You want to have expansions close to your main base, lots of them. Also, you need a map where you will be in good face off position with the AI. For instance, if the map is let's say four players, the closer you are to the AI the better. For instance in champagne supernova is probably one of the easier maps to beat them, but only if you are both on the left, or both on the right. If you are on the left, and AI is on the right... it gets very rough. Mainly because if you are both on the same side, all you have to do is defend from one direction (ie, the AI will either be below or above you, so build a nice line of turrets and send attack after attack.
So I will just go with Champagne Supernova, I know it pretty well. I am huge fan of Klingon vs Feds or Dominion. They are probably the weakest Mercilesss AI *fed being weakest. I play as Klingon.
I can't speak at all for Borg.. i never play them, and not good with dominion. So if you want to beat AIs playing as them... I don't know. But if you like playing Klingons, they can beat Fed Merciless, and Dominion.
So a few main things to remember: you will need to expand numerous times (four minimum- get a map with at least that many, again Champagne SN works), build a good line of turrets between you and the AI, attack to draw them out to the line of turrets, and be ready for an immediate counterattack once you destroy their fleet.
So first is the expansion. Build an extra constructor. The first two will get things going at the home base and your main expansion. The third will just go all over the map building Di and tri expansions. Give them two turrets each for protection and then forget about them. The only defense they get is the two turrets. refinery cannon fodder. You need the extra resources to match the AIs ship production, especially Dominions. Next is turret line, build the turret line closer to you, and let them take care of AI ships. get a fleet of Eight ships or so, and some turrets, attack the AI, draw out their ships retreat to the turret line and let the turrets wipe them out. In the beginning you wont have much of a counter attack, but once you can multiple expansions youll be able to get good ship production and launch immediate counterstrikes after your turrets do all the work.
It will be a long fight. But it can be done. It's also good to expand immediately, right from the start. Hold on building the research facilities so quickly. Get a Kbeajq right out from the start, with refineries, then go to research and right into vorcha. Dont bother with brels. They wont do anything. And don't stay to longer in destroyer stage. Get to vorchas, pronto. It's pretty much constant fighting. For a long time you are scraping by for resources, so expand expand expand. If you have three expansions and they start attacking one, let it go, and come back to rebuild it. But don't leave an expansion without at least building two turrets. And just keep beating on the main base. And taking out their expansions is risky but worth it, - well if you don't eventually they get to starbase making, then it is super hard. But don't ease off the main base... every few counterstrikes should go right to taking out their shipyards.
So, the problem for me was taking out their main base ultimately. Against feds, my favourite, they have a nasty habit of building huge turret blockades,and they get a double starbase going... So something on what I'm doing can most likely be greatly improved upon.
But ideally, main points I can give you are for Klingons in Champagne against say Federation. Build a line of turrets, have it that your both on the same side of the map. Expand over the whole map. They can't attack you everywhere. With lots of resources, try to get to vorchas, neghvar vutpas quickly. But pace yourself. Just keep steady attacks going, keep the scouting up. Can leave it at normal settings. Huge challenge, I think I was doing this for a week straight way back before I finally beat AI merciless. (and the first game I won, easily over hour and a half I think)
I'm sorry this is way longer than I was thinking it would be. Hopefully it helps.
Well, like I said, I've never beat AI Borg merciless... although I haven't tried it in recent weeks. Maybe someone else can help you with that.
As for other races... the next hardest is probably the Romulans, and I've only beaten them a few times on merciless. (Mainly because of 1 sec cloak, they are soooo hard to kill. They will fight right until shields drop then just cloak and run, you lose all your ships but they dont lose many)
I generally don't change anything on the screen... at first I did, double res, or adjust handicap, but you don't have to, although it would make it easier. It is doable to just select your race, and select another race merciless, and launch the game on normal settings.
Main thing is the map lay out. You don't stand much of a chance on smaller maps. I don't go smaller than 16 X 16 K. You want to have expansions close to your main base, lots of them. Also, you need a map where you will be in good face off position with the AI. For instance, if the map is let's say four players, the closer you are to the AI the better. For instance in champagne supernova is probably one of the easier maps to beat them, but only if you are both on the left, or both on the right. If you are on the left, and AI is on the right... it gets very rough. Mainly because if you are both on the same side, all you have to do is defend from one direction (ie, the AI will either be below or above you, so build a nice line of turrets and send attack after attack.
So I will just go with Champagne Supernova, I know it pretty well. I am huge fan of Klingon vs Feds or Dominion. They are probably the weakest Mercilesss AI *fed being weakest. I play as Klingon.
I can't speak at all for Borg.. i never play them, and not good with dominion. So if you want to beat AIs playing as them... I don't know. But if you like playing Klingons, they can beat Fed Merciless, and Dominion.
So a few main things to remember: you will need to expand numerous times (four minimum- get a map with at least that many, again Champagne SN works), build a good line of turrets between you and the AI, attack to draw them out to the line of turrets, and be ready for an immediate counterattack once you destroy their fleet.
So first is the expansion. Build an extra constructor. The first two will get things going at the home base and your main expansion. The third will just go all over the map building Di and tri expansions. Give them two turrets each for protection and then forget about them. The only defense they get is the two turrets. refinery cannon fodder. You need the extra resources to match the AIs ship production, especially Dominions. Next is turret line, build the turret line closer to you, and let them take care of AI ships. get a fleet of Eight ships or so, and some turrets, attack the AI, draw out their ships retreat to the turret line and let the turrets wipe them out. In the beginning you wont have much of a counter attack, but once you can multiple expansions youll be able to get good ship production and launch immediate counterstrikes after your turrets do all the work.
It will be a long fight. But it can be done. It's also good to expand immediately, right from the start. Hold on building the research facilities so quickly. Get a Kbeajq right out from the start, with refineries, then go to research and right into vorcha. Dont bother with brels. They wont do anything. And don't stay to longer in destroyer stage. Get to vorchas, pronto. It's pretty much constant fighting. For a long time you are scraping by for resources, so expand expand expand. If you have three expansions and they start attacking one, let it go, and come back to rebuild it. But don't leave an expansion without at least building two turrets. And just keep beating on the main base. And taking out their expansions is risky but worth it, - well if you don't eventually they get to starbase making, then it is super hard. But don't ease off the main base... every few counterstrikes should go right to taking out their shipyards.
So, the problem for me was taking out their main base ultimately. Against feds, my favourite, they have a nasty habit of building huge turret blockades,and they get a double starbase going... So something on what I'm doing can most likely be greatly improved upon.
But ideally, main points I can give you are for Klingons in Champagne against say Federation. Build a line of turrets, have it that your both on the same side of the map. Expand over the whole map. They can't attack you everywhere. With lots of resources, try to get to vorchas, neghvar vutpas quickly. But pace yourself. Just keep steady attacks going, keep the scouting up. Can leave it at normal settings. Huge challenge, I think I was doing this for a week straight way back before I finally beat AI merciless. (and the first game I won, easily over hour and a half I think)
I'm sorry this is way longer than I was thinking it would be. Hopefully it helps.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 2:03 am
to a separate comment about Ai and cube building... thats soo funny, because when I was first playing borg... they were so easy, they never built anything passed spheres and assimilators. Never really saw diamonds or cubes or pyramids. Well a few pyramids and diamonds, and thats it. I don't know what I did, but somehow all of a sudden one game they just started building mountains of cubes. I find it interesting that you brought it up.
Maybe it was something to do with build costs. But I tried pretty much everything. Double res, unlimited, all sorts of changes to handicap... but then suddenly they built the cubes. And they continued to do so for everything else. Went back to double res, and they built cubes even though they didnt before. So dont remember but somehow I did finally get cubes.
lol and now I cant beat them
Maybe it was something to do with build costs. But I tried pretty much everything. Double res, unlimited, all sorts of changes to handicap... but then suddenly they built the cubes. And they continued to do so for everything else. Went back to double res, and they built cubes even though they didnt before. So dont remember but somehow I did finally get cubes.
lol and now I cant beat them
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 3:08 am
Its beatable athought ill admit i havent done it for a while. Theres a point right near the middle of the game where you will have the advantage during this time you must press the advantage. If you sit on your hands you will lose.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 5:43 am
Yeah, you can still do it pretty simply. It isn't even hard for me any more. 
You simply have to keep at their expansions. If you keep them from expanding, they can't amass a fleet that you couldn't beat. It is simply a large fleet. If you can both keep at their expansions and attack their main base every once in a while, merci Borg are a breeze.
You simply have to keep at their expansions. If you keep them from expanding, they can't amass a fleet that you couldn't beat. It is simply a large fleet. If you can both keep at their expansions and attack their main base every once in a while, merci Borg are a breeze. posted on April 3rd, 2011, 10:47 am
hmm well I'll try it again, I haven't played borg merciless in while. And back when, I was never playing very aggressively. But I have played borg on hard a fair bit to get practise, and borg hard is very easy for me to beat now... so perhaps it is time to move up to merciless again.
and as for just general tips on merciless AIs, obviously larger maps you can be more careless than smaller ones. You have more time. And the other thing, which doesn't really need to be stated kinda obvious, but keep your one gold ranked ships and above safe. (and they won't be hard to get... constant battles and all) I remember during the first week when I was getting used to merciless AI, I had a small 10-15 ship fleet of Vorcha, Neghvar, and Luspet all Double Gold with 2 vorcha and 1 neghvar? or something like that, lol they just never died. I couldnt believe it. I would engage fleets easily outnumbered two to one, and maybe lose one ship, but maybe not even that. (im not sure even if 10-15 ship fleet is small, but it seemed like it on the minimap, or even just on the screen with number of AI units) They just owned. I guess Klingons already have good hull strength, but on higher ranks... lol just couldnt believe the damage and . That really helped in the end too. Even though first times I got em didnt use them right because I got swarmed in the end. Rank ups are a blessing.
I've recently been doing more 2 hard AIs, or stuff like that, but I'll play a merciless AI and see overall what is best. I guess to be fair, I don't know if I've done it with the newer versions. I'm still one back. but it shouldnt change that much between us
But yeah, Zaxxon is right on, keep on both the expansions and main base... although I've never done it for borg. Against feds definitely works.
and as for just general tips on merciless AIs, obviously larger maps you can be more careless than smaller ones. You have more time. And the other thing, which doesn't really need to be stated kinda obvious, but keep your one gold ranked ships and above safe. (and they won't be hard to get... constant battles and all) I remember during the first week when I was getting used to merciless AI, I had a small 10-15 ship fleet of Vorcha, Neghvar, and Luspet all Double Gold with 2 vorcha and 1 neghvar? or something like that, lol they just never died. I couldnt believe it. I would engage fleets easily outnumbered two to one, and maybe lose one ship, but maybe not even that. (im not sure even if 10-15 ship fleet is small, but it seemed like it on the minimap, or even just on the screen with number of AI units) They just owned. I guess Klingons already have good hull strength, but on higher ranks... lol just couldnt believe the damage and . That really helped in the end too. Even though first times I got em didnt use them right because I got swarmed in the end. Rank ups are a blessing.
I've recently been doing more 2 hard AIs, or stuff like that, but I'll play a merciless AI and see overall what is best. I guess to be fair, I don't know if I've done it with the newer versions. I'm still one back. but it shouldnt change that much between us
But yeah, Zaxxon is right on, keep on both the expansions and main base... although I've never done it for borg. Against feds definitely works.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 8:39 pm
for AI merciless, play with map daka corridor? give you the benefit of the klingon turrets to separate well you build. would be a very easy game.
i actually just played the borg merciless AI and beat it... but they never built cubes again. weird. cant say i would have if there had been cubes created. the game was probably 30-50 min. so they certainly could have built them.. unless not. not sure.
i beat them without really feeling like i beat them. ive played borg merciless before, and they were way better then what i just played. maybe they are less aggressive sometimes. i played on daka corridor. it was way to easy.
i actually just played the borg merciless AI and beat it... but they never built cubes again. weird. cant say i would have if there had been cubes created. the game was probably 30-50 min. so they certainly could have built them.. unless not. not sure.
i beat them without really feeling like i beat them. ive played borg merciless before, and they were way better then what i just played. maybe they are less aggressive sometimes. i played on daka corridor. it was way to easy.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 8:45 pm
On Da'ka Corridor, the AI can't expand. They try to expand to the closest moons, which happen to be on the other side of the asteroid field; they keep rebuilding suicide Constructors and sending them through the turret field one-by-one.
Naturally this retards their progress somewhat, as they cannot start building until the turrets are all dead.
Naturally this retards their progress somewhat, as they cannot start building until the turrets are all dead.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 9:05 pm
makes a lot of sense. i was just wasting time waiting for them to come. I built my entire techtree pretty much. expanded to over half the moons. even waited extra 10/15 min for them to build cubes. never did. i know it isnt because of updated versions.. because ive played them recently in other scenarios and cubes were built. although not on hard games ive played recently. but in others.
i will try some more merciless games 1v1. been a while.
im pretty sure the key is to just keep expanding. build extras contructors. and turret wall is always good. constant attack and counterattack on expansion and home base. get to battleships and such quickly. if at a certain point you are stuck on destroyers and cruisers, and they have upgraded to larger ships = you dead.
i will try some more merciless games 1v1. been a while.
im pretty sure the key is to just keep expanding. build extras contructors. and turret wall is always good. constant attack and counterattack on expansion and home base. get to battleships and such quickly. if at a certain point you are stuck on destroyers and cruisers, and they have upgraded to larger ships = you dead.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 11:29 pm
yeah, so very first map. beat borg AI merciless. it was so easy... and I am so confused.
I didn't do that much really and just beat it.
Well short synopsis if someone wants to. So did variant of early vorcha type strat. Build field yard, but dont do anything with it. Build refineries and topmey. Then go right to battle yard, after which armory. Build Kbeajq and field research. That's it for a while at home base. Build a third constructor first thing from starbase followed by four topmeys. Get to expansion and build two refineries and two turrets. Set rally point for the battle yard and field yard for your expansion. Keep one constructor at home, will later build the rest of your techtree. Two need to be at your expansion. Build two refineries first, then two turrets. Then send them each on their merry way to different expansions.
Keep spewing out topmeys from starbase and get six to each expansion. I beat it with three expansions, and two home bases. Only the two expansions were guarded with turrets. The third eventually was destroyed. But I'm sure I profited from it, even with two refineries and the four topmeys. Pretty much right after you get your first few ships, 2 Kbeajq, 1 Qawduj, and 1 Vorcha was my initial force. At the time I had a turret set up, and after destroying 2 scubes, 1 dedo, and 1 interceptor, I went to destroy one of their expansions. Only saw a couples spheres. Several assimilators, but never more than two at a time.
lol. weird. I think I was happier when I thought Borg were super hard. I remember earlier playing and not attacking very quickly.. I must have changed out of it. sweet.
Only other thing.. very first map, so thats probably pretty large. I really thing the difficulty lessens the larger you go for map. And I think as long as you keep expanding your fine. If I hadn't had those four moon pairs quickly from the beginning, I couldnt have continuous Vorcha and Kbaejq production.
Romulans are toughest AI then I guess. I have to play them each all over again. Maybe this wasn't hasnt hard as I remembered it.
I didn't do that much really and just beat it.
Well short synopsis if someone wants to. So did variant of early vorcha type strat. Build field yard, but dont do anything with it. Build refineries and topmey. Then go right to battle yard, after which armory. Build Kbeajq and field research. That's it for a while at home base. Build a third constructor first thing from starbase followed by four topmeys. Get to expansion and build two refineries and two turrets. Set rally point for the battle yard and field yard for your expansion. Keep one constructor at home, will later build the rest of your techtree. Two need to be at your expansion. Build two refineries first, then two turrets. Then send them each on their merry way to different expansions.
Keep spewing out topmeys from starbase and get six to each expansion. I beat it with three expansions, and two home bases. Only the two expansions were guarded with turrets. The third eventually was destroyed. But I'm sure I profited from it, even with two refineries and the four topmeys. Pretty much right after you get your first few ships, 2 Kbeajq, 1 Qawduj, and 1 Vorcha was my initial force. At the time I had a turret set up, and after destroying 2 scubes, 1 dedo, and 1 interceptor, I went to destroy one of their expansions. Only saw a couples spheres. Several assimilators, but never more than two at a time.
lol. weird. I think I was happier when I thought Borg were super hard. I remember earlier playing and not attacking very quickly.. I must have changed out of it. sweet.
Only other thing.. very first map, so thats probably pretty large. I really thing the difficulty lessens the larger you go for map. And I think as long as you keep expanding your fine. If I hadn't had those four moon pairs quickly from the beginning, I couldnt have continuous Vorcha and Kbaejq production.
Romulans are toughest AI then I guess. I have to play them each all over again. Maybe this wasn't hasnt hard as I remembered it.
posted on April 4th, 2011, 6:13 am
What map did you play on that always has a lot to do with it. I think the dominion AI is hardest right now but i dont remember.
posted on April 6th, 2011, 12:58 am
the AI works well on Duel II 1.2 and other more *open and expandable* maps
tbh i think the AI build order is coded so they need a certain amout of expantions to build certain units borg cubes like 3/4 expans etcetcetcetcetc
tbh i think the AI build order is coded so they need a certain amout of expantions to build certain units borg cubes like 3/4 expans etcetcetcetcetc
posted on April 6th, 2011, 1:17 am
yeah could easily be. if you stop certain AIs fromexpanding they wont do anything. ie feds wont build eraudi yard. they just build 4 Antares yards.
posted on April 11th, 2011, 11:04 pm
godsvoice wrote:to a separate comment about Ai and cube building... thats soo funny, because when I was first playing borg... they were so easy, they never built anything passed spheres and assimilators. Never really saw diamonds or cubes or pyramids. Well a few pyramids and diamonds, and thats it. I don't know what I did, but somehow all of a sudden one game they just started building mountains of cubes. I find it interesting that you brought it up.
Maybe it was something to do with build costs. But I tried pretty much everything. Double res, unlimited, all sorts of changes to handicap... but then suddenly they built the cubes. And they continued to do so for everything else. Went back to double res, and they built cubes even though they didnt before. So dont remember but somehow I did finally get cubes.
lol and now I cant beat them
Yeah, the AI is odd like that. Usualy normal AI is WAY easy with the vanilla flops rts_cfg file, but the past few tiems I've played it (testing and practicing build order stratagies) they have rushed me like mad (IE: feds send 2-6 sabres to my expansion or main mining) when its never done that before (99% of my games AI sends nothing more than the scout early on on big or small maps).
I just tried two merciless borg maps, and no cubes at all which is odd.
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