New 2v2 map
Do you have a question on map editing, how use the map manager or want to make your new map public? Post here.
posted on February 18th, 2015, 12:54 pm
Hello,
Recently, there is no enough players online to have decent 3v3/4v4 game, so 1v1 and 2v2 is very popular these days.
That means only one thing: Duel 2 and Star Traffic overdose. That's why I've started to work on my new project - to build one good and generally accepted 2v2 map. Like You all know, it's very hard to build a good map, suitable for different races and gameplay.
I won't jump to conclusions, so I would need Your help. I have few ideas how it should look, but I need Your opinions.
1. Tell me Your favourite 2v2 map, and why You like it
2. What You don't like on Your favourite map.
3. What are the most usual problems with 2v2 maps/games in general by Your opinion
Here is what I think.
1. Star Traffic is my favourite map. It is well known layout for most of us. The biggest advantage is that it gives You different options to expand, and because of the layout You need to use some tactics . Its not just about spamming units and taking them on open range to fight epic battles like some other maps works
2. There is one problem with Star Traffic. Many games turns into 2x 1v1 game with not enough teamwork. Players of the same team are too far and its hard to cooperate. Especially if someone is rushed in first few mins.
3. This is very hard to say. I'm aware of the fact that every map is different story, but some maps are "overdone". Too big, with a lot of details "just to be there" that does not have any influence on the game. Some have good layout , but have too many open space. In that case, everybody plays too passive (except cloakers).
Give me some input.
Recently, there is no enough players online to have decent 3v3/4v4 game, so 1v1 and 2v2 is very popular these days.
That means only one thing: Duel 2 and Star Traffic overdose. That's why I've started to work on my new project - to build one good and generally accepted 2v2 map. Like You all know, it's very hard to build a good map, suitable for different races and gameplay.
I won't jump to conclusions, so I would need Your help. I have few ideas how it should look, but I need Your opinions.
1. Tell me Your favourite 2v2 map, and why You like it
2. What You don't like on Your favourite map.
3. What are the most usual problems with 2v2 maps/games in general by Your opinion
Here is what I think.
1. Star Traffic is my favourite map. It is well known layout for most of us. The biggest advantage is that it gives You different options to expand, and because of the layout You need to use some tactics . Its not just about spamming units and taking them on open range to fight epic battles like some other maps works
2. There is one problem with Star Traffic. Many games turns into 2x 1v1 game with not enough teamwork. Players of the same team are too far and its hard to cooperate. Especially if someone is rushed in first few mins.
3. This is very hard to say. I'm aware of the fact that every map is different story, but some maps are "overdone". Too big, with a lot of details "just to be there" that does not have any influence on the game. Some have good layout , but have too many open space. In that case, everybody plays too passive (except cloakers).
Give me some input.
posted on February 19th, 2015, 10:20 am
I think Little little Universe is a very balanced map and could be an inspiration. And I also had many nice games on lines of war, simply because it's a different map design that really concentrates on working together. And against the AI I also like to play on "passages" (not passage - that's a different map), however, it is too unbalanced right now, perhaps you'd like to fix it 
.
Just my two Cents and nice to see something going on here
. Just my two Cents and nice to see something going on here
posted on February 19th, 2015, 10:59 am
Little little Universe has that "open space" problem, similar to Nebula stream. Somehow It just don't have that "something". River stream is a great map. One of my favourites, but people dont like it. Not sure the right reason why.
Teamwork is my point. I'm trying to mix Star Traffic, River Stream and Nebula Stream.
Teamwork is my point. I'm trying to mix Star Traffic, River Stream and Nebula Stream.
posted on February 19th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Hi,
if you are looking for maps that "force" team work at the moment all I can think of is "lines of war".
But to be honest I still think it should be possible to use all available tactics like rushing one player if he is
too greedy and tries to tek up without building some fleet and defense first.
Team work is great, and more often then not, the team that works better together will will win anyways,
even if 1 gets rushed.
If you just give up 1 expension and or some home mining when the enemy wants to play 1v1/1v1 and instead go 2v1 on Star Traffic you got a very good chance to win.
That being said I got a couple of maps I like a lot for 2v2:
Star Traffic:
positives:
* its kind of smal, so you can use some more funny taktics like a starbase rush with feds or just a yard rush on the enemies home mining if he is not scouting well.
* if you go for the middle expension instead of the side you can group up, but you also got the chance to go for the side and play a more sneaky game.... which leaves a lot of options for cloaking and non-cloaking races.
negative:
* ship pathing: if you are for example on the right top position and have your yard at your home dilitium, ships sometimes take a very stupid route to your partners middle expension. They will fly through the middle of the enemy instead of taking the way on the back side. This is not an issue if you have time to micro them, but if you try to get
reinforcements to the middle during a big fight this can be very annying. Also when your partner does not have ally repair up in time, the repairing ships will sometimes go the way through the enemy territory instead of the save way.
If you could just change the asteriods (or what ever the walls are) a bit, so that the pathing from right-top to middle and from left-bottom to middle would be a bit better, that would probably fix most of my problems with this map.
Hells Kitchen:
positives:
* a very great map for 2v2 where teaming up is extremly important. Going 1v1/1v1 here will loose the game very fast.
* a lot of resources and sneaky expensions
* tek up is possible since its a quite big map, but rushing is still an option (though much harder than on other maps)
negatives:
* the expensions are very far apart, which gives some advantages to cloaking races, since it is very hard for fed and dominion to go defend. Their only option is to counter attack.
* as will most 2v2 maps, borg just suck.... which is not really a problem of the map, but a problem that borg dont
really scale well into mid to late game. Bit it is possible for borg to do some quite effective early reading with scube/probe start.
I dont really have any great idears how to make this map better, since there are so many resources, which normally benefit non cloaking races more then romulans and klingons (who are really just fine with only 1 expesion), making it
easier to defend all expensions, will probably destroy the balance completly.
Helix:
positive:
* This is a super fun map to play if you want to play a high tek game.
* its not a completely open map, you got to go through all these passages which you can defend or use to
cut off the ships of your enemies.
negative:
* since its almost impossible to raid the home mining early and there are so many options for your enemy to expand,
rushing the enemy is not really a great strategie.
It can work if the enemy is not scouting at all and is way behind in skill, but in most scenarios the enemy will survive the
initial burst of the rush and will then have a big tek advantage.
Very fun map for high tek 2v2, would not change anything honestly.
Also a very nice map but not really my favorit: Champagne Supernova
For me the map is a little bit too open, but we had great games on it, but if I want to play a big map
2v2 I honestly prefer Helix or Hells Kitchen.
Hope this helps you.
Best Regards
Hugo
if you are looking for maps that "force" team work at the moment all I can think of is "lines of war".
But to be honest I still think it should be possible to use all available tactics like rushing one player if he is
too greedy and tries to tek up without building some fleet and defense first.
Team work is great, and more often then not, the team that works better together will will win anyways,
even if 1 gets rushed.
If you just give up 1 expension and or some home mining when the enemy wants to play 1v1/1v1 and instead go 2v1 on Star Traffic you got a very good chance to win.
That being said I got a couple of maps I like a lot for 2v2:
Star Traffic:
positives:
* its kind of smal, so you can use some more funny taktics like a starbase rush with feds or just a yard rush on the enemies home mining if he is not scouting well.
* if you go for the middle expension instead of the side you can group up, but you also got the chance to go for the side and play a more sneaky game.... which leaves a lot of options for cloaking and non-cloaking races.
negative:
* ship pathing: if you are for example on the right top position and have your yard at your home dilitium, ships sometimes take a very stupid route to your partners middle expension. They will fly through the middle of the enemy instead of taking the way on the back side. This is not an issue if you have time to micro them, but if you try to get
reinforcements to the middle during a big fight this can be very annying. Also when your partner does not have ally repair up in time, the repairing ships will sometimes go the way through the enemy territory instead of the save way.
If you could just change the asteriods (or what ever the walls are) a bit, so that the pathing from right-top to middle and from left-bottom to middle would be a bit better, that would probably fix most of my problems with this map.
Hells Kitchen:
positives:
* a very great map for 2v2 where teaming up is extremly important. Going 1v1/1v1 here will loose the game very fast.
* a lot of resources and sneaky expensions
* tek up is possible since its a quite big map, but rushing is still an option (though much harder than on other maps)
negatives:
* the expensions are very far apart, which gives some advantages to cloaking races, since it is very hard for fed and dominion to go defend. Their only option is to counter attack.
* as will most 2v2 maps, borg just suck.... which is not really a problem of the map, but a problem that borg dont
really scale well into mid to late game. Bit it is possible for borg to do some quite effective early reading with scube/probe start.
I dont really have any great idears how to make this map better, since there are so many resources, which normally benefit non cloaking races more then romulans and klingons (who are really just fine with only 1 expesion), making it
easier to defend all expensions, will probably destroy the balance completly.
Helix:
positive:
* This is a super fun map to play if you want to play a high tek game.
* its not a completely open map, you got to go through all these passages which you can defend or use to
cut off the ships of your enemies.
negative:
* since its almost impossible to raid the home mining early and there are so many options for your enemy to expand,
rushing the enemy is not really a great strategie.
It can work if the enemy is not scouting at all and is way behind in skill, but in most scenarios the enemy will survive the
initial burst of the rush and will then have a big tek advantage.
Very fun map for high tek 2v2, would not change anything honestly.
Also a very nice map but not really my favorit: Champagne Supernova
For me the map is a little bit too open, but we had great games on it, but if I want to play a big map
2v2 I honestly prefer Helix or Hells Kitchen.
Hope this helps you.
Best Regards
Hugo
posted on February 19th, 2015, 2:52 pm
Great feedback...
We are on the same frequency.
We are on the same frequency.
posted on February 20th, 2015, 1:15 am
my hard drive was recently wiped, so i dont have fleet Ops installed atm to check map names, and tbh i dont remember many of them that well either.
my personal preference is a map that is quite large. 8 player maps are all i usually play with the exception of some well built 6 player maps. this is mostly cause i like to let matches drag on, waiting till late game to strike. i also like to make everyone work for their progress, so getting a builder ship to a mining moon should be dangerous, and easily flanked. my suggestion for this, is to fill the map with alot of wormholes cleverly placed to force people to stay alert. maybe having the large supply areas a distance from the spawn location, this way those who want to expand early, have to work together to secure vital mining locations. depending on how close allies are, you could even force them to share a mining moon at the start. (though i have had some allies that i'd be really ticked off having to deal with this on, so that's a debatable map feature.)
i also enjoy maps with alot of choke points between important areas. usually the spawn points, mining locations, and the map center are where i'd say are important areas. this adds a potential for Romulan ambushes, turrets, klingon/federation mines and other such sneaky traps. this allows both sides to fight in unconventional means.
this may just be me, but i cannot stress how much i love wormholes. you can make lines and lines of turrets, but if you forget about a carefully placed wormhole, all your time and resources spent fortifying one path could be for naught by having a wormhole pour out a fleet of ships behind your base. defense and offence has to mutate to counter. i can already imagine strategies to get around offenses and defenses built around this map style.
i don't envy your job (well, kinda do. map making is fun.) to make a really good, balanced map, you have to provide defenses to back yourself up against, but no so many that you are forced to bring in the full force of the klingon empire just to take out their defenses. there's only a few maps i can think of that have managed to make much of that balance. most are either too wide open to easily defend before your enemy has a large army, or are to easily defended to ever lay siege too after a long game with someone like me who takes too much pleasure in building WALLS of turrets. (i am the turtlemister)
my personal preference is a map that is quite large. 8 player maps are all i usually play with the exception of some well built 6 player maps. this is mostly cause i like to let matches drag on, waiting till late game to strike. i also like to make everyone work for their progress, so getting a builder ship to a mining moon should be dangerous, and easily flanked. my suggestion for this, is to fill the map with alot of wormholes cleverly placed to force people to stay alert. maybe having the large supply areas a distance from the spawn location, this way those who want to expand early, have to work together to secure vital mining locations. depending on how close allies are, you could even force them to share a mining moon at the start. (though i have had some allies that i'd be really ticked off having to deal with this on, so that's a debatable map feature.)
i also enjoy maps with alot of choke points between important areas. usually the spawn points, mining locations, and the map center are where i'd say are important areas. this adds a potential for Romulan ambushes, turrets, klingon/federation mines and other such sneaky traps. this allows both sides to fight in unconventional means.
this may just be me, but i cannot stress how much i love wormholes. you can make lines and lines of turrets, but if you forget about a carefully placed wormhole, all your time and resources spent fortifying one path could be for naught by having a wormhole pour out a fleet of ships behind your base. defense and offence has to mutate to counter. i can already imagine strategies to get around offenses and defenses built around this map style.
i don't envy your job (well, kinda do. map making is fun.) to make a really good, balanced map, you have to provide defenses to back yourself up against, but no so many that you are forced to bring in the full force of the klingon empire just to take out their defenses. there's only a few maps i can think of that have managed to make much of that balance. most are either too wide open to easily defend before your enemy has a large army, or are to easily defended to ever lay siege too after a long game with someone like me who takes too much pleasure in building WALLS of turrets. (i am the turtlemister)
posted on February 20th, 2015, 8:52 am
Hi ResistanceFutile,
Thank you for the great feedback regarding Hells Kitchen! As the creator of the map it is always nice to hear that the community really enjoy the map and after all this time it is still played.
The map went through many revisions before hitting the community and even after it was still updated a few times with the expansion moons being the things adjusted slightly the most. However as you have pointed out because of cloak it would be hard to do much with them without affecting balance in a major way but the map was created with the intention of forcing people to scout more and build more scouts for cloak detection. The main aim was to prevent turtling up, something a lot of new federation players would do and to sometimes make a choice of saving an expansion or counter attacking and accepting the loss. However the most important part of the map is team work as you stated, if you don't have this you will loose.
@ 0viking0
Just to give you a few tips on creating maps as when I created hells kitchen I went to Dominus for advice so I may as well share it here.
Before creating the map, think about what you want the map to achieve, for instance with mine it was to force scouting and good team work with multiple paths to attack and expand.
Starting positions, this is very important to make sure all races have a fairly equal start and does require constant testing to make sure all races can get to the first moon pair efficiently and there is enough room to fit the mining stations between the moon and the starbase, if i remember right it was roughly 5 grid squares each side from when you set the starting location.
Nebula's, use these sparingly and only in certain locations and certain types as they are a pain to balance for all races... Green benefits shield races, shield blackouts overly benefit borg.
Asteroids are great with blockers! You can force nice little divides and routes for players to take, just make sure there isn't even a hint of a gap otherwise the pathing does silly things and tries to sneak through as blockers spin and rotate.
Expansions, don't be afraid to force players to try new ideas, have multiple expansions, for instance with hells kitchen you can expand to the rear, it takes longer, it is safer but can be hard to guard against late game to cloak races or you can expand forward, it is quick and you can defend it but it is also forwards towards the enemy base so easy for them to make early raids.
these are some of the things I kept in mind when creating hells kitchen so I hope it helps.
If the community wants I could probably create a new map though my time is limited so you'd need to choose would you want a FFA, 2vs2 or 3vs3 and so on. I'd also need some people around to beta test , hells kitchen went through plenty long before it saw light of day released to the community
Thank you for the great feedback regarding Hells Kitchen! As the creator of the map it is always nice to hear that the community really enjoy the map and after all this time it is still played.
The map went through many revisions before hitting the community and even after it was still updated a few times with the expansion moons being the things adjusted slightly the most. However as you have pointed out because of cloak it would be hard to do much with them without affecting balance in a major way but the map was created with the intention of forcing people to scout more and build more scouts for cloak detection. The main aim was to prevent turtling up, something a lot of new federation players would do and to sometimes make a choice of saving an expansion or counter attacking and accepting the loss. However the most important part of the map is team work as you stated, if you don't have this you will loose.
@ 0viking0
Just to give you a few tips on creating maps as when I created hells kitchen I went to Dominus for advice so I may as well share it here.
Before creating the map, think about what you want the map to achieve, for instance with mine it was to force scouting and good team work with multiple paths to attack and expand.
Starting positions, this is very important to make sure all races have a fairly equal start and does require constant testing to make sure all races can get to the first moon pair efficiently and there is enough room to fit the mining stations between the moon and the starbase, if i remember right it was roughly 5 grid squares each side from when you set the starting location.
Nebula's, use these sparingly and only in certain locations and certain types as they are a pain to balance for all races... Green benefits shield races, shield blackouts overly benefit borg.
Asteroids are great with blockers! You can force nice little divides and routes for players to take, just make sure there isn't even a hint of a gap otherwise the pathing does silly things and tries to sneak through as blockers spin and rotate.
Expansions, don't be afraid to force players to try new ideas, have multiple expansions, for instance with hells kitchen you can expand to the rear, it takes longer, it is safer but can be hard to guard against late game to cloak races or you can expand forward, it is quick and you can defend it but it is also forwards towards the enemy base so easy for them to make early raids.
these are some of the things I kept in mind when creating hells kitchen so I hope it helps.
If the community wants I could probably create a new map though my time is limited so you'd need to choose would you want a FFA, 2vs2 or 3vs3 and so on. I'd also need some people around to beta test , hells kitchen went through plenty long before it saw light of day released to the community
posted on February 20th, 2015, 10:31 am
Thanks for the feedback guys.
I can say that I agree with You all guys. I'm not new in map making, but I don't share them so often. I'm working on this map project for a month or so. I've made tons of scheching.
The only thing I've never considered is using Wormholes. They can be OK on big maps. But I'm trying to have this map on StarTraffic size. I think that wormhole on that size would be an overkill.
I'll be online this weekend if someone is interested for doing some testing.
I can say that I agree with You all guys. I'm not new in map making, but I don't share them so often. I'm working on this map project for a month or so. I've made tons of scheching.
The only thing I've never considered is using Wormholes. They can be OK on big maps. But I'm trying to have this map on StarTraffic size. I think that wormhole on that size would be an overkill.
I'll be online this weekend if someone is interested for doing some testing.
posted on February 20th, 2015, 10:48 am
I would say avoid wormwholes as i believe they can still cause random OOS issues and hence why you don't see maps with them but Dominus would have to confirm if this was ever fixed however I believe it never was.
Though I don't like them anyway as they can make balancing a total pain
Though I don't like them anyway as they can make balancing a total pain
posted on February 20th, 2015, 3:36 pm
Was fixed in one of the previous patches
posted on February 22nd, 2015, 10:59 am
I've made quick preview...
Map is 2v2, top right vs bottom left. Name of the map is Exxilon. Main idea for the name is the direction of the gameplay which is opposite to map layout. Starting points is the same for the both teams. Map is symmetrical if You look at it on a team level. On the other hand, players within the same team have totally different starting positions. As You can see, playes A and C are exposed, and players B and D have more passive starting points. Players A and C have more expanding options, but they are closer to the opponent. There is only one expansion behind both players.
The reason for this is that both players have to work together right from the start, and its easier to balance game with players that are not at the same quality level
Next big thing is central passage and solo dilithium moons on the flanks. This prevents the fact that having the fortified central shipyard is half of the victory. One of the flanks can be of equal importance. There are many "passages", so it hard to build turrets on them all. At the very center of the map is obstacle that forces spamming oriented players to use some tactic. Its easier to make ambushes and similar. There is not a lot of open space so ppl must use some tactic. Its not just about spamming. Its general idea is to have as much turnovers during a game as possible.
I hope You like it, and give me soem feedback when You try it.
THNX
Map is 2v2, top right vs bottom left. Name of the map is Exxilon. Main idea for the name is the direction of the gameplay which is opposite to map layout. Starting points is the same for the both teams. Map is symmetrical if You look at it on a team level. On the other hand, players within the same team have totally different starting positions. As You can see, playes A and C are exposed, and players B and D have more passive starting points. Players A and C have more expanding options, but they are closer to the opponent. There is only one expansion behind both players.
The reason for this is that both players have to work together right from the start, and its easier to balance game with players that are not at the same quality level
Next big thing is central passage and solo dilithium moons on the flanks. This prevents the fact that having the fortified central shipyard is half of the victory. One of the flanks can be of equal importance. There are many "passages", so it hard to build turrets on them all. At the very center of the map is obstacle that forces spamming oriented players to use some tactic. Its easier to make ambushes and similar. There is not a lot of open space so ppl must use some tactic. Its not just about spamming. Its general idea is to have as much turnovers during a game as possible.
I hope You like it, and give me soem feedback when You try it.
THNX
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posted on February 24th, 2015, 3:41 pm
Hi Viking,
Tried some AI games on the map to get a feeling for it.
Have to say I love it so far.
But I would have some request for changes:
* remove the nebulas that are in currently, they dont really help much, just make big fleet fights a bit messy.
* instead get some nebula passages (the nebula where you loose the shield) so you can get rid of scouts that tail you and
give the borg some more power in 2v2. They lack 2v2 power a lot.
Best Regards
Hugo
Tried some AI games on the map to get a feeling for it.
Have to say I love it so far.
But I would have some request for changes:
* remove the nebulas that are in currently, they dont really help much, just make big fleet fights a bit messy.
* instead get some nebula passages (the nebula where you loose the shield) so you can get rid of scouts that tail you and
give the borg some more power in 2v2. They lack 2v2 power a lot.
Best Regards
Hugo
posted on February 27th, 2015, 1:42 pm
Hugo said (instead get some nebula passages (the nebula where you loose the shield) so you can get rid of scouts that tail you and
give the borg some more power in 2v2. They lack 2v2 power a lot)
The bit about the borg is what i said when i was playing 2v2 on that map with viking i did say a blue nebula or 2 for the borg to get away when far away from home would be nice bigger the map the harder MUCH!!! harder it is for borg
give the borg some more power in 2v2. They lack 2v2 power a lot)
The bit about the borg is what i said when i was playing 2v2 on that map with viking i did say a blue nebula or 2 for the borg to get away when far away from home would be nice bigger the map the harder MUCH!!! harder it is for borg
posted on February 27th, 2015, 3:46 pm
Im aware of the Borg problem... I've played it with StarMaster. He was Borg on the safer position. In reality, he was the strongest on the map. He had time to build enough dodes and stuff to slaughter everything. Placing nebulas would be hard on this map. But I'm already developing one or two more.
Like always... Problems comes where You dot see them. Although there are many ways to reach enemy, everybody tries to bunker up, and that was not original idea LOL.
So far... one of the best teamwork map I've played so far (even Sutee plays like great teamplayer on this one Lol). I cant say which race have the advantage, but I can say that Feds spend a lot on turrets here... That is what I dont like. I've made a lot of passages... if You close one, You will be reached on the other side... but noooo, somehow players building turrets everywhere lol. Even on the teammate territory. ...even the most aggressive players I know....
In maybe 10 games i had so far, it is hard to say that any faction is OP/UP on this map... Like I've said... even Borg did good in a few occasions. Once with great teamwork Borg/Warpin rush, 2nd game Borg did almost everything alone... The point is in teamplay. I'm not sure what will happen with 2 Borgs in the same team.
Like always... Problems comes where You dot see them. Although there are many ways to reach enemy, everybody tries to bunker up, and that was not original idea LOL.
So far... one of the best teamwork map I've played so far (even Sutee plays like great teamplayer on this one Lol). I cant say which race have the advantage, but I can say that Feds spend a lot on turrets here... That is what I dont like. I've made a lot of passages... if You close one, You will be reached on the other side... but noooo, somehow players building turrets everywhere lol. Even on the teammate territory. ...even the most aggressive players I know....
In maybe 10 games i had so far, it is hard to say that any faction is OP/UP on this map... Like I've said... even Borg did good in a few occasions. Once with great teamwork Borg/Warpin rush, 2nd game Borg did almost everything alone... The point is in teamplay. I'm not sure what will happen with 2 Borgs in the same team.
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