Map for the upcoming Tourney

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:11 pm

I'm having a long conversation with Dominus about the map for the tourney. We couldn't really get a completely clear opinion. He still thinks that the original Duel would be the best for it (I'm sure that he is the most experienced in game/map balancing issues), so I tend to agree with him. I think the latest duel brought up some new problems, especially for borg. Some common strategies seem to be almost suicidal on that map (for example assim rush, the lack of the purple nebulas makes it not feasible anymore, but I can understand those ppl who got really annoyed with sphere dancing using these nebulas) So, my vote goes to the original Duel, because I find it still more balanced for early game periods, and in a 1v1 this is a decisive factor.

But thats just my opinion. I'm really curious what you folks think about it! I brought up some other choises of course, but for example choosing Early Bird would make necessary to add extra rules, aka: completely ban the usage of HSA.  :(  :lol:

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:15 pm

I'm not really sure because seemingly all the maps are biased to someone. eg on Duel all you need to do is be the dominion or feds and expand to the middle. Pow and the enemy cant do anything. And as you say on Early Bird the HSA would be OP (unless you put some rules in place).

My vote goes for Early Bird.
Unless someone makes a map that combines Duel and Early Bird?

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:25 pm

I'm not really sure because seemingly all the maps are biased to someone. eg on Duel all you need to do is be the dominion or feds and expand to the middle. Pow and the enemy cant do anything. And as you say on Early Bird the HSA would be OP (unless you put some rules in place).

My vote goes for Early Bird.
Unless someone makes a map that combines Duel and Early Bird?

To be honest, I find early expanding with yards is almost as powerful on Early Bird as on Duel. Maybe gives a bit more room for the opponent to expand, because of he can still set up his expansion to the other side of the map. But it leaves his main just as vulnerable as on Duel (maybe a bit even more). Also I think expanding with a yard for doms, and feds is completely ok, they need it, thats thier nature, and should not be removed.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:32 pm

Just to be reaaaally clear, I said I think as Elim pointed out, not I know - so hash out your opinions without mine please

Here are some things to consider perhaps -

Are separated moon pairs going to be an issue? (aka, can be problematic for Dominion, or Klingons if they switch to tri-heavy stuff)

Are Crystalid or Mutara/Fluid Nebulae in a nasty position relative to moon pairs?

Are expansions too far/too close to the main?

Can you re-expand (aka, are there enough moon pairs to allow you to re expand if your winning opponent is not looking)?'

Do early tech-up strategies become feasible/more feasible due to distance of base to base, or base to expansion? This includes Early Sphere, Warp In, B-5/T-15, Warbird, Vor'cha. The closer the expansion and the bigger the map, the easier to pull off.

Are you forced to use specific strategies?

How successful is turret rushing the enemy (small maps have the issue only)?

Boggz did recently try to make a map that combines Duel and Early Bird incidentally  :thumbsup:

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:36 pm

Yeah I see.
Maybe Boggz' map will be good.

BTW where can I view this map?

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:39 pm

Where else? Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Boggz'z Mapz (NEW 1 v1)

[Elim]

posted on October 28th, 2010, 3:52 pm

Last edited by Elim on October 28th, 2010, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Where else? Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Boggz'z Mapz (NEW 1 v1)

Well, I find it interesting, but the short rush distance between the main bases, opens the way for some hyper crazy cheese. For example: expanding with a yard to your opponents main dilithium. 
Or build a yard near the Unity station and get free cloak detection...

posted on October 28th, 2010, 6:00 pm

Where else? Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Boggz'z Mapz (NEW 1 v1)

  Thanks for the plug, Dom .

  I don't think that one's ready, yet.  I've only had a game or two and I feel that it would need a lot more before being used in a tourney.


  To be honest, Duel II 1.1 was made specifically to address the issues observed in Duel I during the last tourney.  There are 2 different moon pairs available, both of which are slightly separated so that they cannot be fully protected by a single turret.  Dominion shouldn't have any trouble setting up their mining though .

  Nebulae:
The purple's were just too much of a problem.  The Green's have been moved to a place where they are boxed in.  The one concern is that it's too close to one of the expansions, but it has yet to cause a problem in games played so far.  The purple's were just too strong.


  Early Bird would not be a good choice as the totally separated moon pairs really do favor the Federation.  All other races have trouble due to how separated they are.

  Duel II is still my suggestion 

posted on October 28th, 2010, 9:03 pm

All of the games I've had on 1.1 have involved issues with the Crystalids  Poor Borg are absolutely screwed when it comes to that too  . They just can't compete when you can move several miners, or simply move attack ships back and forth into that nebula, even when the non-Borgie is doing the attacking.

posted on October 28th, 2010, 11:21 pm

Interesting.  Well technically the crystalids are farther (travel time-wise) away from the main Di moons now, and their is also an entire expansion possible on the other side. 

We'll call the closer expansion #1 and the farther expansion (the one without crystalids near it) #2 for reference.

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There is no way in my mind that miners could escape the attacking ships quickly enough to make it to that nebula and sit there safely.  Maybe if your attacking force is a single Probe ....  A shipyard at that exp is far more likely to be a pain in the ass for Borg as the miners can just repair.

  The difference between this map and the Original Duel in term of that expansion are minimal.  Only the tri moon at the #1 expansions is relatively close to the crystalid. 


I still feel as though this map is more balanced overall between all races then the original Duel.  The original Duel showed us that Federation and Borg had an immense advantage on it.  Deny that if you wish, but I'm fully confident that this map has more options, more strategy, and is better balanced no matter what race you are.  The only thing that could really help would be a wormhole connecting the Northeast corner to the Southwest.

posted on October 29th, 2010, 12:33 am

The distance from the dilithium may have stayed the same (as you pointed out the tritanium is now quite a bit closer), but the time to notice an attack has not stayed the same (due to the ability to see both sides of the pylon now without disadvantage), nor has the location of the mining station (which can now be located on the opposite side, closer to the Crystalid - though that is a more minimal effect). Likewise, the ability to blockade that part of the map with a single yard is quite successful now, as it is on the other expansion as well. Due to those reasons - especially the first and second - I find it a fair bit easier to retreat miners, or combat ships, to the nebula. Especially when against a Borg opponent, who has no ability to regenerate like this.

If everybody jumps off a cliff, it doesn't prove that the cliff was the best possible choice - without any knowledge of the people who are jumping off, it might simply show that people follow each other - often blindly. That's a strawman, but Feds and Borg were overwhelmingly played in the tournament - we had just 1-2 Romie matches substantiated, as with Dominion. Is that due to a player's comfort level? It can't be due to having a disadvantage for those factions, since 1-2 total games cannot provide a meaningful indicator for the more than a dozen players - unless you are telling me that just those two games were enough to convince everybody by word of mouth not to play the other factions. It is instead far more likely that people were simply more comfortable with certain factions, just as happens with other games (take the debate between which faction was most powerful in the beta for Starcraft II. Two entirely separate very large groups became convinced of two entirely separate phenomena). Similar examples can be found in earlier patches, such as 3.0.7 where many people became convinced that Norways were useless, or in 3.1.0-1, where some were quite adamant that B'rels were not a problem even if they were the most easily spammed effective unit in the game  . I can never feel that Feds or Borg had an 'immense advantage' with the original Duel, as I have never experienced that effect first hand and I still do not experience that now. Remember that 'Fued' was made specifically to replace Duel too  . That's all I'm going to say on the matter here anymore though

posted on October 29th, 2010, 1:22 am

Alright well of course you're welcome to your opinion .

posted on October 29th, 2010, 2:24 am

In my opinion, duel 2 is much more balanced whether it be truly balanced or balanced to the skill level of the population, it doesn't really matter.

Duel 2 is small enough to raid early but gives you the possibility of multiple expansions.  I believe this is helpful when playing against a fed player.  Often, I have noticed the fed player does quite well on one less moon pair than any other faction...

I bet we see a few more dominion and Klingon players this time around...

Oh, regarding Boggz latest map...it is pretty fun but will be very difficult for anyone that can't handle a rush... 

posted on October 29th, 2010, 4:51 am

Easiest way to make it balanced is to pick one of the void maps lol

posted on October 29th, 2010, 4:53 am

Lol, but those aren't actually balanced for all races because the moon placement and distances are crucial .  It's not all about the other map objects .  It's really hard to combine all the elements into a balanced map as you might imagine.