Why doesn't starfleet Tell the Romulans to F*** off?
What's your favourite episode? How is romulan ale brewed? - Star Trek in general :-)
posted on January 1st, 2013, 10:35 pm
The treaty with the Romulans where they agreed to not use cloaking devices is perhaps one of the absolute worst decisions made by the Feds outside of no longer using the TOS women's uniforms. :/
Why doesn't Starfleet just tell the Romulans to GFTO and start using cloaking devices. Imagine how many fewer people would have died because of that needlessly stupid policy. How many additional tactical and strategic choices were removed from the table because of that asinine decision. The alliance between the Klingons and the Feds is stronger than ever so what exactly would the Romulans do anyways......start a war they would surely lose?
Why doesn't Starfleet just tell the Romulans to GFTO and start using cloaking devices. Imagine how many fewer people would have died because of that needlessly stupid policy. How many additional tactical and strategic choices were removed from the table because of that asinine decision. The alliance between the Klingons and the Feds is stronger than ever so what exactly would the Romulans do anyways......start a war they would surely lose?
posted on January 1st, 2013, 11:17 pm
Me and my brother were having the same argument the other night! I agree! But he insists its a moral issue... pah, morals...
posted on January 1st, 2013, 11:42 pm
Agree to not use Cloaks in order to to end a conflict or refuse and start a war that would kill thousands (or more) on boths sides and probably devestate both? Apparently, Starfleet (you know, the ones who hate war) puts a higher value on its peoples lives than you do.
Especially since it was signed when Starfleet was still having trouble with the Klingons (33 years before the Enterprise-C sacrificed itself). If they publicly use them, they risk war over breaking the treaty (one of their own)... and as mentioned above, they do not want war!
Especially since it was signed when Starfleet was still having trouble with the Klingons (33 years before the Enterprise-C sacrificed itself). If they publicly use them, they risk war over breaking the treaty (one of their own)... and as mentioned above, they do not want war!
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 12:03 am
It would still start a war, war is always something the feds strived to avoid and the only way to avoid war is compromise, like the crappy treaty with the cardies.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 12:10 am
Tyler wrote:Agree to not use Cloaks in order to to end a conflict or refuse and start a war that would kill thousands (or more) on boths sides and probably devestate both? Apparently, Starfleet (you know, the ones who hate war) puts a higher value on its peoples lives than you do.
Especially since it was signed when Starfleet was still having trouble with the Klingons (33 years before the Enterprise-C sacrificed itself). If they publicly use them, they risk war over breaking the treaty (one of their own)... and as mentioned above, they do not want war!
agree with this ^^
starfleet would happily accept to not develop cloaks in order to establish a lasting peace with the romulans. starfleet didn't have any cloaks at the time they agreed this. and they desperately wanted to avoid a war. and it worked, the romulan neutral zone was quiet for years as the ufp and romulans largely isolated themselves from each other.
even if you ignore the motive of preferring peace over war, starting such a war would be stupid. no guarantee of success, and even if they won, they still had the klingons nearby, and as tyler said, relations with the klingons weren't so rosy at the time. the ufp couldn't afford a war with either side, as that would leave a power imbalance.
fast forward to tng series 1 era, feds and klingons are at peace, presumably the klingons would love to have a war with the romulans, but just can't win such a war, same goes for the romulans. klingons would probably want starfleet to abandon the shaky peace with the romulans and fight a war klingons + ufp vs romulans. which the klingons + ufp could probably win. the only problem is that this would require the ufp being the instigators of a war. try getting the federation citizens to vote in favour of that. the romulans certainly know they can't win against the klink fed alliance, that's why they haven't been very confrontational since the klinks and feds became better friends. the romulans knew the feds wouldn't start a war unprovoked, and so they didn't do any provoking.
so therefore breaking the peace by developing cloaks would be seen as provocation, starting a war. fed citizens would certainly not support that, since the peace is working for the most part. wars are distasteful and result in death of civilians.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 4:08 am
I think I should be more specific. I am talking about the current timeline not back than. What is done is done and nothing can be changed (short of a Qism).
Right now the relations between the Feds and the Klingons are about as close as they can get especially with Martok in charge. The Feds lost a hell of alot of people that they didn't need to if they had just installed cloaking devices. They couldn't sneak into areas like the Klingons or Romulans could because they didn't have any cloaking devices. It's all nice to want peace and love but it is completely irresponsible for the Federation to ignore one of the greatest tools that can be used to this day.
That would be like the US agreeing to not put up missile interception just to appease the Russians who can't compete in that field. That is the height of arrogance and stupididy. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to oppose a system that stops people from getting killed just like there was no reason for them to oppose cloaking technology now especially when you have enemies like the Borg and you still have the Dominion right around the corner as well.
Right now the relations between the Feds and the Klingons are about as close as they can get especially with Martok in charge. The Feds lost a hell of alot of people that they didn't need to if they had just installed cloaking devices. They couldn't sneak into areas like the Klingons or Romulans could because they didn't have any cloaking devices. It's all nice to want peace and love but it is completely irresponsible for the Federation to ignore one of the greatest tools that can be used to this day.
That would be like the US agreeing to not put up missile interception just to appease the Russians who can't compete in that field. That is the height of arrogance and stupididy. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to oppose a system that stops people from getting killed just like there was no reason for them to oppose cloaking technology now especially when you have enemies like the Borg and you still have the Dominion right around the corner as well.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 6:23 am
Allow me to pose a different approach.
This is a simple and loose analogy, just to clarify.
My neighbor from across the street (galaxy) starts shooting at my house (planet). I naturally retaliate in defense of my home and viola we have a war. Enough people die, the day comes and peace talks ensue. One of the stipulations is that light masking technology he used to hide his people so they can sneak onto my property is off limits to me. I state my own terms, we deliberate, peace treaty signed.
Do I need his tech, no. Would it make things easier, possibly. What I am going to do is install some simple counter measures. Pressure plates around my house and neighborhood, infrared if I feel like it, because they are an effective way of spotting movement or the presence of things unseen. Then he sees and hears what I want him to see and hear. You get the idea. Oh, my family is also now safe. Being a father, that's important to me.
Where ever there is a measure there is always a countermeasure. There is also nothing like an overconfident enemy, leading them down the path you want is much easier that way.
Do Romulans seem to have the advantage with cloak, sure. But it is also when they are most vulnerable. Plus, we have Klingon neighbors, we just borrow their car when we need to. Why buy when you can borrow. LOL
The BORG neighbors 2 blocks over are a pretty deadly ,no to be trifled with kinda enemy, no cloak.
This has been paid advertisement for UFP:::::::::more laughing
At no time were any actual neighbors. fictional or otherwise, hurt during this advertisement.
This is a simple and loose analogy, just to clarify.
My neighbor from across the street (galaxy) starts shooting at my house (planet). I naturally retaliate in defense of my home and viola we have a war. Enough people die, the day comes and peace talks ensue. One of the stipulations is that light masking technology he used to hide his people so they can sneak onto my property is off limits to me. I state my own terms, we deliberate, peace treaty signed.
Do I need his tech, no. Would it make things easier, possibly. What I am going to do is install some simple counter measures. Pressure plates around my house and neighborhood, infrared if I feel like it, because they are an effective way of spotting movement or the presence of things unseen. Then he sees and hears what I want him to see and hear. You get the idea. Oh, my family is also now safe. Being a father, that's important to me.
Where ever there is a measure there is always a countermeasure. There is also nothing like an overconfident enemy, leading them down the path you want is much easier that way.
Do Romulans seem to have the advantage with cloak, sure. But it is also when they are most vulnerable. Plus, we have Klingon neighbors, we just borrow their car when we need to. Why buy when you can borrow. LOL
The BORG neighbors 2 blocks over are a pretty deadly ,no to be trifled with kinda enemy, no cloak.
This has been paid advertisement for UFP:::::::::more laughing
At no time were any actual neighbors. fictional or otherwise, hurt during this advertisement.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 6:36 am
Except that there aren't always countermeasures. The last NG movie had a Romulan ship that was completely undetectable. Cloaking and sensors are a constant cat and mouse game the problem is that sometimes cloaking is ahead for awhile and can be a devastating advantage for them.
We can "borrow" the Klingons as they did in a couple of episodes of TNG but that is only useful for small missions.....not a war were virtualy every ship can be called on for combat.
The reason the Feds should be able to use cloaks isn't necessarily because the Romulans have them, but because there are lots of very dangerous enemies out there where cloaking would be an invaluable tool.
Also, the Breen managed to sneak in a fleet of cloaked vessels and attack Star Fleet command so I just don't buy the argument that the are always going to be countermeasures in place to detect them.
We can "borrow" the Klingons as they did in a couple of episodes of TNG but that is only useful for small missions.....not a war were virtualy every ship can be called on for combat.
The reason the Feds should be able to use cloaks isn't necessarily because the Romulans have them, but because there are lots of very dangerous enemies out there where cloaking would be an invaluable tool.
Also, the Breen managed to sneak in a fleet of cloaked vessels and attack Star Fleet command so I just don't buy the argument that the are always going to be countermeasures in place to detect them.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 11:12 am
Past, present or future, one simple fact never changes; the Federation still does not want to provoke the Romulans into war. That one cannot be stated enough.
And there will always be countermeasures; you have to actually develop them first. You can't counter things you've never encountered before (Breen tech is different to Romulan tech). Starfleet does quite well countering modern Romulan cloaks.
Starfleet doesn't really need cloaks, anyway. They tend to get the same effect by using the environment fairly often.
And there will always be countermeasures; you have to actually develop them first. You can't counter things you've never encountered before (Breen tech is different to Romulan tech). Starfleet does quite well countering modern Romulan cloaks.
Starfleet doesn't really need cloaks, anyway. They tend to get the same effect by using the environment fairly often.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 11:38 am
Tyler wrote:Past, present or future, one simple fact never changes; the Federation still does not want to provoke the Romulans into war. That one cannot be stated enough.
agreed again.
even if we look at post nemesis times, the dominion war has left all 3 powers badly hurt by a war, nobody wants to provoke a new war over technology that starfleet has never needed before.
the romulans were last to join the dominion war, they probably suffered the fewest losses, and are in a better position than the others. a war would be silly for the ufp.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 7:25 pm
If starfleet didn't need cloaks and all they need to use is the environment then how come they bothered to put one on the Defiant.
There will not always be countermeasures. That is a very dangerous assumption to make. All it takes is one ship with some new form of undetectable cloak to launch some of that Romulan super goo that destroys stars and you can kiss earth goodbye.....it almost worked in DS9 when that changeling took the runabout disguised as Obrien.
If the Romulans were that upset about it they woudl have to go to war against both the Feds and the Klingons which they simply don't have the capacity to do. They might be upset but frankly there isn't anything they can do about it especially since one of their ships just tried to take out earth with their super cloak and their Roger Rabbit radiation.
Leaving aside the overwhelming obvious offensive benefits of having cloaking technology, how many lives could have been saved if ships had been able to cloak in order to escape an ambush. The Dominion destroyed lifeboats.
There will not always be countermeasures. That is a very dangerous assumption to make. All it takes is one ship with some new form of undetectable cloak to launch some of that Romulan super goo that destroys stars and you can kiss earth goodbye.....it almost worked in DS9 when that changeling took the runabout disguised as Obrien.
If the Romulans were that upset about it they woudl have to go to war against both the Feds and the Klingons which they simply don't have the capacity to do. They might be upset but frankly there isn't anything they can do about it especially since one of their ships just tried to take out earth with their super cloak and their Roger Rabbit radiation.
Leaving aside the overwhelming obvious offensive benefits of having cloaking technology, how many lives could have been saved if ships had been able to cloak in order to escape an ambush. The Dominion destroyed lifeboats.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 7:48 pm
Defiant had it partly because Dominion tech was better than theirs and parlty because theose methods don't always work (neither do cloaks, as they get countered all the time). Defiant was alone in that, Starfleet still didn't become a cloaking faction.
As long as they have active intel (through Starfleet Intelligence or stealing tech), every enemy advantage can be countered. Something shown by the habit of finding cloaked ships so often. Everything that gets used on a regular basis is normally countered one way or another, even changeling spies and assimilation.
Starfleet was slaughtered in the war and the Klingons are retards with little fighting skill who may or may not have suffered even more than Starfleet, they're not exactly in a position to protect themselves very well.
The Dominion can see through the cloaks used against them and ambushes tend to damage ships and make cloak less effective. It would provide some advantages in some events, but Starfleet has done well without using tech that makes them more vulnerable to damage and incapable of protecting themselves. Cloaks are actually just as likely to increase casualties as reduce them.
As long as they have active intel (through Starfleet Intelligence or stealing tech), every enemy advantage can be countered. Something shown by the habit of finding cloaked ships so often. Everything that gets used on a regular basis is normally countered one way or another, even changeling spies and assimilation.
Starfleet was slaughtered in the war and the Klingons are retards with little fighting skill who may or may not have suffered even more than Starfleet, they're not exactly in a position to protect themselves very well.
The Dominion can see through the cloaks used against them and ambushes tend to damage ships and make cloak less effective. It would provide some advantages in some events, but Starfleet has done well without using tech that makes them more vulnerable to damage and incapable of protecting themselves. Cloaks are actually just as likely to increase casualties as reduce them.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 8:27 pm
Starfleet did not do well at all. The only reason that they survived was because SIsko convinced the wormhole dudes to wipe out the Dominion fleet back up that was on its way. Had it not been for that Starfleet would have lost big time.
The Klingons held off The Cardies and Dominion and a good part of that is their cloaking technology.
Also they could only see through cloaks early on in the war. Later on cloaks became effective again. Worf destroyed that shipyard when he was on board the Bird of Prey with Martok and they weren't detected while cloaked. Defiant and a Klingon ship were playing "lure the Jemmie" when one ship would pretend to be damaged and the other would cloak and strike when a Jem Hadar ship got close. The cloaked mines around the wormhole also lasted a long long time without them being able to detect their exact locations.
I still don't get how you can say that there are always countermeasures. That is simply not the case as was shown by the Reman ship. The Klingons orbitted Romulus without being detected as well on that two part episode in TNG with Spock. As I already mentioned the Breen successfully attacked earth as well. I don't know how you can be so cavalier about stealth technology it is a huge advantage in combat, why do you think that in the real world we spend billions of dollars developing it.
The Klingons held off The Cardies and Dominion and a good part of that is their cloaking technology.
Also they could only see through cloaks early on in the war. Later on cloaks became effective again. Worf destroyed that shipyard when he was on board the Bird of Prey with Martok and they weren't detected while cloaked. Defiant and a Klingon ship were playing "lure the Jemmie" when one ship would pretend to be damaged and the other would cloak and strike when a Jem Hadar ship got close. The cloaked mines around the wormhole also lasted a long long time without them being able to detect their exact locations.
I still don't get how you can say that there are always countermeasures. That is simply not the case as was shown by the Reman ship. The Klingons orbitted Romulus without being detected as well on that two part episode in TNG with Spock. As I already mentioned the Breen successfully attacked earth as well. I don't know how you can be so cavalier about stealth technology it is a huge advantage in combat, why do you think that in the real world we spend billions of dollars developing it.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 8:53 pm
putting aside the effectiveness of cloaks, as that isn't hugely relevant. the ufp still isn't going to tear up a treaty that they signed.
that's not the fed way.
and as a democracy, the ufp wouldn't allow it's military arm (starfleet) to break the treaty.
breaking the treaty would be an act of war, feds don't start wars.
lets make your own assumption that cloak is a very effective combat tool, then in the dominion war, losses would be bigger for the feds as they can't cloak, the romulans, with the best cloaks would suffer the smallest losses (they also entered the war later on). after the war the ufp/klinks can't afford to mess with the romulans. also the fact that they teamed up in the war mended some fences, nemesis helped mend fences even more, with picard fighting alongside donatra.
breaking a treaty would be taking a giant diarrhoea shit over all that good feeling.
even the klingons are chill, they've just had the dominion war, so they don't really need another war yet, and martok is in charge, and he's probably the first chancellor not to be insane or stereotypically evil.
that's not the fed way.
and as a democracy, the ufp wouldn't allow it's military arm (starfleet) to break the treaty.
breaking the treaty would be an act of war, feds don't start wars.
lets make your own assumption that cloak is a very effective combat tool, then in the dominion war, losses would be bigger for the feds as they can't cloak, the romulans, with the best cloaks would suffer the smallest losses (they also entered the war later on). after the war the ufp/klinks can't afford to mess with the romulans. also the fact that they teamed up in the war mended some fences, nemesis helped mend fences even more, with picard fighting alongside donatra.
breaking a treaty would be taking a giant diarrhoea shit over all that good feeling.
even the klingons are chill, they've just had the dominion war, so they don't really need another war yet, and martok is in charge, and he's probably the first chancellor not to be insane or stereotypically evil.
posted on January 2nd, 2013, 8:57 pm
nathanj wrote:Starfleet did not do well at all. The only reason that they survived was because SIsko convinced the wormhole dudes to wipe out the Dominion fleet back up that was on its way. Had it not been for that Starfleet would have lost big time.
The Klingons held off The Cardies and Dominion and a good part of that is their cloaking technology.
Not sure where that came from, I mention Starfleet getting slaughtered in the war. Nothing about them winning, or that fight. I think you should read up on what 'slaughtered' means...
The Klingons succeded in being a minor annoyance and getting no lasting bonuses with their cavelry raids.
nathanj wrote:Also they could only see through cloaks early on in the war. Later on cloaks became effective again. Worf destroyed that shipyard when he was on board the Bird of Prey with Martok and they weren't detected while cloaked. Defiant and a Klingon ship were playing "lure the Jemmie" when one ship would pretend to be damaged and the other would cloak and strike when a Jem Hadar ship got close. The cloaked mines around the wormhole also lasted a long long time without them being able to detect their exact locations.
They saw through cloaks at the start, everyone detects ships through cloaks with the founders having the ability to go straight to the source and take the specs. How long do you reckon those cloacs would be any use as they currently are?
nathanj wrote:I still don't get how you can say that there are always countermeasures. That is simply not the case as was shown by the Reman ship. The Klingons orbitted Romulus without being detected as well on that two part episode in TNG with Spock. As I already mentioned the Breen successfully attacked earth as well. I don't know how you can be so cavalier about stealth technology it is a huge advantage in combat, why do you think that in the real world we spend billions of dollars developing it.
Because they always do; they create something, the enemy learns more about it and finds a work around, then the first mods or replaces the tech to bypass the counter. It keeps going until on is dead.
The Breen got to Earth, but nothing left what even the Klingons considered suicide. Not exactly the 'advantage' Starfleet is gonna like...
I'm not cavalier and I have seen the advantages in battle, I just don't consider it the infallible god-tech you seem to. It's just tech and can be countered by any advanced empire that knows what to look for or how it works, in addition to the loss of weapons and shields when it's active making using it in battle a risk that is more in character for the Klingons to use.
Lets not even get started on lowering your shields and turning off your weapons next to a Borg ship.
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