Crash Without A Bug Report

posted on September 1st, 2019, 5:13 pm

Working on a side race for my mod; the Gorn, I have had a crash occurring that just results in a crash to the desktop. There is no bug report (exception file) with this crash making it harder to figure out what it means. So what causes a crash that doesn't generate a bug report?

posted on September 2nd, 2019, 4:09 am

I remember the game will CTD in an unusual manner when Dynamic_Localized_Strings.h has an open " without a second one to close it. Try removing that file from the mod temporarily and see if it goes away. Otherwise it could be input.map or RTS_CFG.h, basically any file that the game loads in the shell or when starting a game can CTD if there's a parsing error.

posted on September 2nd, 2019, 5:35 am

I remember the game will CTD in an unusual manner when Dynamic_Localized_Strings.h has an open " without a second one to close it. Try removing that file from the mod temporarily and see if it goes away. Otherwise it could be input.map or RTS_CFG.h, basically any file that the game loads in the shell or when starting a game can CTD if there's a parsing error.

It's not the input.map or the RTS_CFG.h file because ALL of my mods use the same ones; as in the Original One associated with the Parent Mod, namely the main Game Directory's files. None of my Mods in the Mods Directory use their own input.map or the RTS_CFG.h file so they are not the problem. Proof of this is in the fact that no other full mod or mini-mod crashes to the desktop with no bug report.

The only time this happens is strictly with the Gorn and no other race and it seems to occur scrolling over Special Weapon buttons that have their own tooltips written in their individual files. The RTS_CFG.h file isn't being used and neither is the Dynamic_Localized_Strungs file either.

posted on September 2nd, 2019, 4:40 pm

Interesting. I don't have much experience with tooltips inside the odf files. In that case there may be an issue with the verbosetooltip line. I believe that hex references don't work inside odf files so if you used any red number text or the special energy icon that might be the cause.

I've also had issues in the past when I edited tooltips using UTF-8 format and didn't convert back to ANSI. In that case it worked normally for most people but crashed for Shadowdegrey and a few others.

You can test whether the problem is with the regular tooltip or the verbose tooltip by watching whether it crashes instantly or after 1 second hovering over the button.

posted on September 2nd, 2019, 10:58 pm

Interesting. I don't have much experience with tooltips inside the odf files. In that case there may be an issue with the verbosetooltip line. I believe that hex references don't work inside odf files so if you used any red number text or the special energy icon that might be the cause.

I've also had issues in the past when I edited tooltips using UTF-8 format and didn't convert back to ANSI. In that case it worked normally for most people but crashed for Shadowdegrey and a few others.

You can test whether the problem is with the regular tooltip or the verbose tooltip by watching whether it crashes instantly or after 1 second hovering over the button.

I'm using files created by others from other Mods. This file for this race was done by someone else who made a Gorn race and didn't obviously check their work and released a mod with crashing errors. Something I'm never going to do. All Mods I release will have every known bug found and solved and notifications of what bugs exist that aren't solved. They a player knows what they are getting into for any bugs. Well I've had to waste my modding time going through the Gorn Special Weapons and in the verbose tooltips they've had a few " missing. One of which is the weapon that was being scrolled over that caused the crash in regards to not having any bug report, yet the page in the guides that's for Bug Reports and Bug Checklists says this should cause an: "Out Of Memory Error" and thus wasn't/isn't happening!

Code: Select all

"Out of Memory Error" anywhere along the load-screen progress bar
Likely causes:

A quotation mark was missed before or after something in an ODF.

http://guide.fleetops.net/guide/modding/tutorials/bug-crash-checklist

posted on September 3rd, 2019, 4:48 am

I'm using files created by others from other Mods. This file for this race was done by someone else who made a Gorn race and didn't obviously check their work and released a mod with crashing errors. Something I'm never going to do. All Mods I release will have every known bug found and solved and notifications of what bugs exist that aren't solved. They a player knows what they are getting into for any bugs. Well I've had to waste my modding time going through the Gorn Special Weapons and in the verbose tooltips they've had a few " missing. One of which is the weapon that was being scrolled over that caused the crash in regards to not having any bug report, yet the page in the guides that's for Bug Reports and Bug Checklists says this should cause an: "Out Of Memory Error" and thus wasn't/isn't happening!

Well, those are... confident words, to put it mildly. You obviously aren't in the part of the development of your mod when you start to realize how complex thing a mod is. Even with the best intention, there could be some errors here and there, even game crashing bugs which you miss, even if you test your game for hundreds of hours. Before I released my mod I tested it for almost two weeks. Still after the initial release the players found several bugs I missed. Now that I'm working on the extension of that mod even I found a few that everybody missed.
Everybody wants to release a bugfree and "prefect" mod, but that's not always possible because we are humans. You say you gonna check and doublecheck your mod before release, which is good and prudent. But even if you manage to find all the bugs before release, implying that others are worse than you just because they couldn't, is just disrespectful and arrogant.

(Note: It's not my work USSJasmine was talking about)

posted on September 3rd, 2019, 3:10 pm

I'm using files created by others from other Mods. This file for this race was done by someone else who made a Gorn race and didn't obviously check their work and released a mod with crashing errors. Something I'm never going to do. All Mods I release will have every known bug found and solved and notifications of what bugs exist that aren't solved. They a player knows what they are getting into for any bugs. Well I've had to waste my modding time going through the Gorn Special Weapons and in the verbose tooltips they've had a few " missing. One of which is the weapon that was being scrolled over that caused the crash in regards to not having any bug report, yet the page in the guides that's for Bug Reports and Bug Checklists says this should cause an: "Out Of Memory Error" and thus wasn't/isn't happening!

Well, those are... confident words, to put it mildly. You obviously aren't in the part of the development of your mod when you start to realize how complex thing a mod is. Even with the best intention, there could be some errors here and there, even game crashing bugs which you miss, even if you test your game for hundreds of hours. Before I released my mod I tested it for almost two weeks. Still after the initial release the players found several bugs I missed. Now that I'm working on the extension of that mod even I found a few that everybody missed.
Everybody wants to release a bugfree and "prefect" mod, but that's not always possible because we are humans. You say you gonna check and doublecheck your mod before release, which is good and prudent. But even if you manage to find all the bugs before release, implying that others are worse than you just because they couldn't, is just disrespectful and arrogant.

(Note: It's not my work USSJasmine was talking about)

One it's not your mod I'm talking about unless you've released a Gorn Mod or a mod with a full Gorn race in it!

Two I'm talking about bugs and crashing errors that are so simple a first time madder could comprehend their causing a crashing error; like a missing " in an ODF file. Out of all of the Special Weapons for this Gorn race I've decided to use it has had a lot of missing " in weapons files. That's easily a crashing bug that the creator could have fixed or even released patches for, but guess what there wasn't any patches for the Mod my Gorn came from; I checked multiple sources. That's what I mean doing testing.

Plus two weeks isn't even long enough to test out a mod for bug hunting. I'm already planning on three - four months for that. That way every ship, every station in every race has every possible scenario that could cause a crash is tested and confirmed to work. Then it gets released and any special features after the initial release gets added that don't make the aspect of the mod's concept.

In fact I've been working on this mod for close to 12 years. That's counting the time before I inherited it as a project being done totally on my own where I changed up its final concept. So I really do know the complexity of developing a mod. Plus you don't know my method of bug hunting to make sure there are no bugs so the key word you said is "Could" be some errors here there.

Really I'm interpreting your entire reply as an assumption that you've made based on your own mod and your own two weeks of bug hunting. And that's because as I said Two Weeks isn't enough time to hunt for bugs. It takes a lot longer than that. That's why I'm allowing months for that!

posted on September 3rd, 2019, 5:43 pm

Well then... "One": I wrote what I wrote to clarify that I'm not defending my work but stand up for the necessary mutual respect between fellow modders.

And "Two":
Let's just assume that I know what I'm talking about as well as I'm part of the Armada 2 community for a fairly long time and I'm working on my mod even longer than you are . Not to mention other releases and several other mods I contributed one way or another
If you plan months of bughunting before the final release that means to me that you don't doublecheck your work while you're developing the mod, otherwise you wouldn't need months.

But regardless of your experience, your attitude is simply arrogant and not worthy for an experienced modder. It reflects negatively on you if you talk about fellow modders the way you did. Especially if you don't know them, their background or their work.

posted on September 4th, 2019, 3:07 am

Well then... "One": I wrote what I wrote to clarify that I'm not defending my work but stand up for the necessary mutual respect between fellow modders.

And "Two":
Let's just assume that I know what I'm talking about as well as I'm part of the Armada 2 community for a fairly long time and I'm working on my mod even longer than you are . Not to mention other releases and several other mods I contributed one way or another
If you plan months of bughunting before the final release that means to me that you don't doublecheck your work while you're developing the mod, otherwise you wouldn't need months.

But regardless of your experience, your attitude is simply arrogant and not worthy for an experienced modder. It reflects negatively on you if you talk about fellow modders the way you did. Especially if you don't know them, their background or their work.

One:
I respect every modern, but every 95% of every crash that I have had to fix in my mod is from using other Mods files and then after finding out their crashing in my mod to discover they are causing crashes in the original mod they came from. What that tells me is that it's not my problem but the original modded didn't check their work.

And Two:
I've been modding both Star Trek: Armada I and II since both of these games came out and know what I'm actually doing. I've also been following and in the Armada Community during that entire time as well, back when Armada2Files existed and was first staring out. And during that time I've had many mod downloaded send me Mods they needed fixing from released not fixing their crashes. Hence how I knew way before the Bug/Crash Checklist Page here that a missing " is supposed to cause a "Out Of Memory Error" and not allow the game to load, but as this entire threads original creation (until you hijacked it to complain the way it seems you are) was mentioning as it turns out this whole crash is caused by a missing " in an ODF. But as I've stated that's supposed to result in an "Out Of Memory Error" on loading but since that isn't the Guide for Bug/Crash Checklist is wrong! What has been known to be the cause of such an error since the infancy of Armada Modding is wrong then.

The evidence is clear though, the files causing this crash are in another Mod that wasn't mine. That shows it's the original modder's fault.

And Three:
I triple check my wirkmin modding hence why I make sure everything works and that's because besides creating my own weapons and other ODF files that actually never cause crashes I still have to fix crashes from other Mods that I'm using files from. I expect those modes to have released working Mods that means no bugs in them. That they proofread and checked their work over and actually tested it. This crash just proves that it's warranted to have months worth of testing because apparently I have to do others work for them (yet again because I've have recently been given a mod that was crashing for another player I know that he downloaded by Majestic and guess what it was crashing right after it was installed. The crash was due to research stations using the wrong pod hardpoints.)

And you want to talk about my attitude? My attitude and judgement of modder's is based on their work and their Mods. If they work and don't crash or have crashes anyone should have noticed, like a missing " or using non-existent hardpoints on a model for pods that then cause a crash is how I'm going to judge that modder for it's their work in my eyes that defines them. And I expect to be judged the same way, by my work and how it plays. If that means being more diligent and taking extra time for bug hunting that is far more worth it than releasing a mod that has a crash that shouldn't have occurred; like one caused by a missing "! In ever file I've ever edited or made I've triple check my work and never have missed any required symbols from: " , # and that's because if they're needed I make sure they are there. I shouldn't have to go into every file in a downloaded mod and check for such missing symbols.

And let me guess, and going by the way you're acting you've never downloaded a mod that any fellow modder created and found crashes that they shouldn't have missed? Are you trying to say you've never downloaded a mod by other modder with any " missing; a , missing; a # missing that they shouldn't have missed? Unless you've been so lucky to not have that happen in Mods you have downloaded do you think "they should have checked their work" or "they should have tested their work better"? All those are reasons why I'm proof checking through Bug Hunting for three to four months so no such errors occur; especially the one she that are so obvious like a missing ".

Like I said I'm using someone else's Gorn race and their files and they missed a " in a few different ORF files for weapons; both special and regular. They should have easily detected them in game for these crashes occur the moment the cursor is right over the button for those special weapons, and that's why I say someone didn't test their work! That's why I judge modders by their work. Maybe you have less of Standards for judging but in my culture a person's work defines them, their character and their attitude to everything and not just quality. Due to the Gorn doing this I'm starting to wish I went with SquireJames' Gorn Race in his KA2 Mods instead.

posted on September 4th, 2019, 8:17 am

Ok, let's stick with the numbers then....

One: The issue is not whose fault the crashes were. Obviously, if you found the reason of the crash and it was in that Gorn mod, then it's not your fault, nobody said so. The issue is that everyone is a human being and not a coding robot, so everyone can make mistakes. That's no reason to talk about any fellow modder the way you did. You'd rather respect him for doing a significant part of the work for you with that Gorn race, and not talking trash about him just because he missed a bug or two.
Sidenote: Did you ask his permission to use his work in your own mod?

Two: Sorry, but I don't remember you from back then. I'm part of the Armada/Armada II modding community for more than 15 years (can't even remember exactly when I joined...), and I can't remember everybody.

Three: See, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about, trashing other modders for no good reason. You forget your place, good sir! Other modders did not release their mods to make your work easier! You should be thankful to them if they give you permission to use their work and not openly complaining about the job they were doing!
You want to judge others only by their work. Then you should be judged by your work, right? Well, I don't remember seeing anything released by you so far (obviously I can be mistaken). By your logic you should be nothing because you have shown nothing, and you would have even less right to judge anyone else who already did release something.

Of course I've encountered mods with bugs. Even game breaking bugs. But did you see me or anyone else raging like you did and talking trash about other modders? I sure didn't! That would be a violation of the requirement of mutual respect for each other and each other's work. You could POLITELY tell him that you found some bug, or offer him to make a patch that fixes those bugs, but certainly not talking on an open forum the way you did.
Once again. You're using someone else's work. He spared you a hell lot of time, so at the very least you should be respectful.

And finally, I think that original models and textures, clever ideas, detailed balance weight more than a few bugs, no matter how obvious or easily fixable they are. So I won't even think bad of a mod which is full of original ideas and original content, even if I have to spend a week fixing the remaining bugs for myself.



PS 1: Out of curiosity, which Gorn mod are you using? I hope you're not trashing Aad's work...
PS 2: You know you can't use another modder's work without asking permission first, right?
PS 3: You do know that you may NOT release anything downloaded form Majestic Sci-Fi Central on any outside source like Filefront or ModDB? It's the site's policy that any content published there can only used in mods exclusively published there. Just saying.

posted on September 5th, 2019, 6:43 am

Ok, let's stick with the numbers then....

One: The issue is not whose fault the crashes were. Obviously, if you found the reason of the crash and it was in that Gorn mod, then it's not your fault, nobody said so. The issue is that everyone is a human being and not a coding robot, so everyone can make mistakes. That's no reason to talk about any fellow modder the way you did. You'd rather respect him for doing a significant part of the work for you with that Gorn race, and not talking trash about him just because he missed a bug or two.
Sidenote: Did you ask his permission to use his work in your own mod?

Two: Sorry, but I don't remember you from back then. I'm part of the Armada/Armada II modding community for more than 15 years (can't even remember exactly when I joined...), and I can't remember everybody.

Three: See, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about, trashing other modders for no good reason. You forget your place, good sir! Other modders did not release their mods to make your work easier! You should be thankful to them if they give you permission to use their work and not openly complaining about the job they were doing!
You want to judge others only by their work. Then you should be judged by your work, right? Well, I don't remember seeing anything released by you so far (obviously I can be mistaken). By your logic you should be nothing because you have shown nothing, and you would have even less right to judge anyone else who already did release something.

Of course I've encountered mods with bugs. Even game breaking bugs. But did you see me or anyone else raging like you did and talking trash about other modders? I sure didn't! That would be a violation of the requirement of mutual respect for each other and each other's work. You could POLITELY tell him that you found some bug, or offer him to make a patch that fixes those bugs, but certainly not talking on an open forum the way you did.
Once again. You're using someone else's work. He spared you a hell lot of time, so at the very least you should be respectful.

And finally, I think that original models and textures, clever ideas, detailed balance weight more than a few bugs, no matter how obvious or easily fixable they are. So I won't even think bad of a mod which is full of original ideas and original content, even if I have to spend a week fixing the remaining bugs for myself.



PS 1: Out of curiosity, which Gorn mod are you using? I hope you're not trashing Aad's work...
PS 2: You know you can't use another modder's work without asking permission first, right?
PS 3: You do know that you may NOT release anything downloaded form Majestic Sci-Fi Central on any outside source like Filefront or ModDB? It's the site's policy that any content published there can only used in mods exclusively published there. Just saying.

One: Anyone who doesn't test their Mods out and hunt for bugs is no modder at all and doesn't deserve to be called one. I don't care if you don't like that but that's the truth. A Modder should test their work and not release buggy projects. That's why you don't take two weeks only to test your work, that's why you take a lot longer and test every aspect in the game. A simple checking each build button in game to see if it's crashing the game isn't too hard to do and is logically. The same goes for proof reading your files to make sure nothing is missing. You don't have to be a modding or coding robot to go back and double check and triple check your work especially when an error can cause a crash! Doing so is logical to recheck your work! And for your information the person's read me said he made the weapons for these Gorn and compiled models together so guess what this modder should know how to work ODF files and should check his work! If you can't accept that don't reply to my posts ever again!

Furthermore Aad didn't have anything to do with this Gorn race in the mod I got them from for his name wasn't in the credits whatsoever. None of Aad's Mods have ever caused any crashes and that's because he actually checks his work. He's the one that told me years ago to triple check every file I work on for errors and to not take in,y two weeks for bug hunting.

Two: I've changed my name so many times in the Armada Community and that's because each time it was because I was a member of Modding Groups that worked in different Mods. Mostly small minor Mods and full races, and when not actively working on them they had me testing for guess what bugs and mistakes in ODF files so guess what a mod wouldn't be released with errors. And guess what out of 10 Mods released as a member of different groups only one mod got through with bugs and they weren't coding related. Most of the time my job on all these projects was working in the shadows and staying away from the forum's end unless it involved downloading files. We had a designated forums person and I forgot her modding name but I know her real name Katrina. That's why you don't remember me from the Armada I and II Community yet I remember you and actually I remember a fella modder wanting to block you for being disrespectful and judgemental. Now I'm seeing why that was the case.

Three: My reason for trashing modders is 100% valid especially when it's not trashing its Judging and it's Judging by work quality and for the quality of work I've been involved with I deserve respect forthright projects I worked on didn't ever need any major patches and any errors they had were missing ODF or models but never other than one crash.

I'm not talking trash about other modders, I'm judging them and there's a difference. If I wanted to talk trash I wouldn't be using the words that I'm using and would be writing very trashy.mim not doing trust for I'm judging! Plus I've already said I want to be judged by my work and that's why I'm going to be doing months worth of bug checking and release a mod with all known bugs solved or not release anything at all. If you can't do it right or can't release a working project I was told by fellow modders don't release a project at all if it's buggy. I see it as and was told: "An End User with a Mod should be able to enjoy it and be able to play it just perfectly with no bugs. It's not their job or duty to have to fix bugs for a project that wasn't theirs in the first place, they are the End User. As the creator you're responsible for releasing a working product." Those were words of wisdom that King Solomon would have used as well, and the business world thinks the same way. You may like doing that but that's not how I see modding.

And you think a patch can be requested or offered for the mod with the Gorn? It seems not even downloadable anymore, I've checked the site that had it lost it and other Mods but net had any patches for every mod downloaded with patches are all grouped together on my computer and this conversion with the Gorn race onky had one release, and it's not just it's Gorn that have had crashes fir your information it's an extremely buggy mod, thus its creator does deserve the Judging I've been giving him or her.

That's all why I judge Mods on the quality of the work and the bugs. The original models, textures, clever ideas, balancing don't aren't as impor Task is it buggy or does it work. Because the bugs take away from all of that and the experience that all of that should bring.

Under the law actually all Mods can be used without permission there's court cases that prove this and my mod will be released under those laws and includes legal documentation that proves all of this. Modders aren't protected under Copyright Law and they don't own their work unless they're licensed their work. This what was declared by a Federal Judge in California. And that includes anything from MSFC but I don't use anything from MSFC because it's all rudeness to keep it only there!

posted on September 5th, 2019, 8:30 am

You're so very-very wrong about intellectual property rights that I won't even start discussing it. Let's just say that without their consent you shouldn't use their work and you certainly can not use their work (by law) if they forbid it.

I see it's pointless to reason with you. I also see that you don't respect even the elementary agreed-upon rules of modding, or to your fellow modders.
I don't know if you planned to use anything I've created, but just in case I hereby forbid you to use any mods, addons, extensions, or any of my works released for Star Trerk Armada II, Fleet Operations or any other game.

For the record: That unfortunate incident you mentioned was a misunderstanding and we settled the question soon after. So at least I didn't have to hide behind various names... Wasn't Jetnova one of your aliases by any chance?

posted on September 5th, 2019, 4:49 pm

You're so very-very wrong about intellectual property rights that I won't even start discussing it. Let's just say that without their consent you shouldn't use their work and you certainly can not use their work (by law) if they forbid it.

I see it's pointless to reason with you. I also see that you don't respect even the elementary agreed-upon rules of modding, or to your fellow modders.
I don't know if you planned to use anything I've created, but just in case I hereby forbid you to use any mods, addons, extensions, or any of my works released for Star Trerk Armada II, Fleet Operations or any other game.

For the record: That unfortunate incident you mentioned was a misunderstanding and we settled the question soon after. So at least I didn't have to hide behind various names... Wasn't Jetnova one of your aliases by any chance?

Under the law you have no rights whatsoever to say that and I have LEGAl EVIDENCE that allows me to use any of your Mods and every other Mods creator with or without their permission because they legally are not yours to determinvwho can or cannot use them. The United States Supreme Court has legally determined that Mods fall under the Fair Use Laws that means anyone can use them for their creators don't make profits off of them and make them for FUN and aren't getting paid for them or their creation. As a legal result you don't own them. You place them online they're FREE to anyone to use any way they please. The LAW and thus the COURTS have spoken and as an American Citizen the law is in effect so guess what I'm releasing work done by you and you can't legally do anything about it!

posted on September 5th, 2019, 4:52 pm

I don't even know a Jetnova, I was part of the Starbase34 modding team at a point a FLAM so who are you even talking about?

Two I have a degree in Law Enforcement and work in Washington DC at the Supreme Court so I actually know what I'm talking about.

posted on September 5th, 2019, 5:50 pm

I'll refer you to here: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/

You'll recognize it as I've sent it to you before regarding the Upgrade Project mod Jetnova/Jemezu/USSJasmine.

And again for reference: Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

It does not have to be licensed or registered with the copyright office. Registration is voluntary. Though you already know this due to your considerable stature in Washington DC.

Oh, and a Judges court ruling in California does not a national/federal ruling make.