Breen warship

posted on February 12th, 2012, 2:11 pm

Well the fleet ops vorcha and the real cannon vorcha are also completely different, in the show it has disruptors and torpedos not a beam weapon.

[Anonymous]

posted on February 12th, 2012, 2:23 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on February 12th, 2012, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well the fleet ops vorcha and the real cannon vorcha are also completely different, in the show it has disruptors and torpedos not a beam weapon.

actually vorcha was inconsistent in canon, it had a beam too in way of the warrior. the episode where the defiant (in)famously reduced the vorcha's damage with a tractor beam, and then turned off their shields. vorcha looked kinda pathetic and the defiant looked op.

[img width=600]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080824061646/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b0/Vor%27cha_firing_forward_disruptor.jpg[/img]

we've also seen it fire wing/nacelle mounted pulses and a big front mounted blob/pulse and a front mounted smaller pulse:

[img width=200]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081004051135/memoryalpha/en/images/1/13/IKS_Bortas_firing_disruptor_cannon.jpg[/img][img width=200]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080829004923/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a1/Klingon_fleet%2C_Sacrifice_of_Angels.jpg[/img][img width=200]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080824021857/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f4/Vor%27cha_firing_disruptors%2C_Crossover.jpg[/img]

EDIT: click images to expand.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 4:13 pm

Lol wow, that ship can fire ANYTHING.

With regards to the Breen ships, I look forward to their roles becoming more useful.  The big problem with anti-battleship guns has always been that battleships are never autotargeted:  While a fleet of BC/BB's is always fun, a SINGLE monsoon in the fight will reduce the effectiveness of your fleet to less than half its potential.

Now that torpedoes do more damage to defensive ships instead of just large ships, the breen should become much more awesome.

As for Breen Battleships, they break the pricing model of the Dominion: lower Di/Tri costs than everyone else in exchange for large amounts of supply invested in the technology.  But the Breen Battleship costs ridiculously high minerals as well.  1 BB costs about as much as 2 V13 battleships or 3-4 B5 carriers, and doesn't have much higher effectiveness.  The slowness simply overcompensates for the effectiveness, especially if the enemy has weapon-disabling or single-target specials like the Remore.

I've said in the past that both Breen Battleship and S-7 Defender could increase their speed by 20 and not be overpowered in the slightest.  They would still be slow, forward-firing battleships that can't escape from a losing battle, EVER.  Even when I had already lost the game to a swarm of bugs/bombers, I was still able to kill a few of the S-7's that Spretz experimented with by using my Remore special.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 4:37 pm

breen costs roughly 1.5x as much as v13, not 2x. and it gets 1 more off and 8 more def. (than the breen v13) that's significant. the breen is pretty tough, and excels at defending, when it can reasonably be retreated to a yard.

most importantly it gets a really useful passive, in this patch offensive passives are easier to mix in as they will always be in effect when firing regardless of what other ships you have. the breen also does most of its damage via torps, while the pure v13 does more than half of its damage with the beam. hence if the enemy has big stuff the breen will naturally be useful. not to mention that it gets a really good officer bonus, randomly disabling enemy subsystems.

its special is more useful for going after single high profile targets too. the v13's special is more useful for just getting some damage out there. so they can't really be compared too much.

the breen is just different, the slowness means one mistake and you're toast, unlike the normal dominion strategy of throwing away s2/fighters without concern.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 5:16 pm

actually vorcha was inconsistent in canon, it had a beam too in way of the warrior. the episode where the defiant (in)famously reduced the vorcha's damage with a tractor beam, and then turned off their shields. vorcha looked kinda pathetic and the defiant looked op.

[img width=600]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080824061646/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b0/Vor%27cha_firing_forward_disruptor.jpg[/img]

we've also seen it fire wing/nacelle mounted pulses and a big front mounted blob/pulse and a front mounted smaller pulse:

[img width=200]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081004051135/memoryalpha/en/images/1/13/IKS_Bortas_firing_disruptor_cannon.jpg[/img][img width=200]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080829004923/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a1/Klingon_fleet%2C_Sacrifice_of_Angels.jpg[/img][img width=200]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080824021857/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f4/Vor%27cha_firing_disruptors%2C_Crossover.jpg[/img]

EDIT: click images to expand.

Oh yeah i forgot about that one, well that was only once and its still the wrong colour 

posted on February 12th, 2012, 6:32 pm

Nah, there is also a scene later when a Vor'cha attacks a Dominion dreadnought with a beam. In fact the only thing we did not see on Vor'chas were torpedoes. Yet the description of the model one could buy says it had two torp launchers at the front.

Concerning breen: if there were more warbird rushes we would see more Breen . And they can be quite effective vs Borg, even though their problem is they have to win, otherwise they are usually toast.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 6:40 pm

Nah, there is also a scene later when a Vor'cha attacks a Dominion dreadnought with a beam.

indeed, although that was green too.

either way, fed phasers have been red, blue, orange and yellow over the years. klinks have had red as well as green beams too. so in the time between canon and fleetops time, the klinks could have easily decided to go for more yellowy beams. maybe it's just a matter of taste. like which colour to paint your ship. colour doesn't change function.

we all remember the voyager episode where the bad guys pick up federation rifles and the beams suddenly change to blue colours. maybe the weapons have settings just for colour, so that combatants can pick team colours and know whether the weapons fire is from, friends or enemies.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:09 pm

breen costs roughly 1.5x as much as v13, not 2x. and it gets 1 more off and 8 more def. (than the breen v13) that's significant. the breen is pretty tough, and excels at defending, when it can reasonably be retreated to a yard.

most importantly it gets a really useful passive, in this patch offensive passives are easier to mix in as they will always be in effect when firing regardless of what other ships you have. the breen also does most of its damage via torps, while the pure v13 does more than half of its damage with the beam. hence if the enemy has big stuff the breen will naturally be useful. not to mention that it gets a really good officer bonus, randomly disabling enemy subsystems.

its special is more useful for going after single high profile targets too. the v13's special is more useful for just getting some damage out there. so they can't really be compared too much.

the breen is just different, the slowness means one mistake and you're toast, unlike the normal dominion strategy of throwing away s2/fighters without concern.

Haha, if you're stuck defending against battleship spam odds are that you're already dead. One glorified turret won't help you; if anything, you should have gone puretech and set up perimeters.

In fact, the BB's speed of 60 means that it has virtually no offensive capacity at all, even in the best of times. When you can get a cheaper, faster, and more generalized V13 while making fewer strategic sacrifices overall, you have no reason to build the BB in any normal match.

So yes Dom, that's a damned limited niche is has here.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:15 pm

offence =! speed, just like the chonaq, you can get these ships to be offensive, but you'll need to be more attentive to get their huge damage.

assume you've taken the lead against a fed player, feds are notorious for surviving against the odds and can take pressure, the Breen batt is a good idea, you don't need speed, you need to put them out of their misery, and the breen batt is great at damaging stations too.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:31 pm

Yes, but with that kind of speed, despite its hitpoints a Breen Battleship has less survivability than, say, 3 bombers.  Yet the bombers deal more damage, cost about the same, are more mobile, and have a significantly lower tech cost.

The only advantage that a single large ship has over several small ships is its survivability.  A Breen Battleship that travels more than one screen-length away from its yard is vulnerable to being killed by any midgame raiding fleet, basically no offensive survivability.  In this game offense is very closely tied to speed.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:34 pm

If I had it my way I'd switch the models of the Breen Cruiser and Breen Battleship. While I'm certain in canon the Breen had the same design on different scales, I still never got the impression that it was quite as massive as it is in Fleet Ops. Similarly, the model used for the Breen Cruiser in Fleet Ops looks a lot like the Breen Warship in Armada 1, which was the size of a Sovereign. Just makes sense to me to have that model be the Breen Battleship and the current Battleship model be the Cruiser.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:40 pm

comparing a breen battleship to an arbitrary number of smaller ships is kinda pointless. bombers die one at a time, taking some of your firepower away each time too.

you are assuming your breen batt is getting chased, which if you are attacking wisely, isn't gonna be the case. as i suggested, use it during a big assault that is well planned. the enemy isn't going to be chasing you across the map if your fleet is bigger than their's.

e2s are vulnerable for almost the same reason, some warpins are also like this. as are assims. they all attack well, but fail miserably when retreating. deal with that by planning your attack better, don't get caught retreating across the map.

If I had it my way I'd switch the models of the Breen Cruiser and Breen Battleship. ...

problem with that is the breen battleship model has really thin parts that make no sense on a small ship. the ship needs to be big for these thin parts to make sense.

posted on February 12th, 2012, 8:56 pm

There's nothing arbitrary about comparing one Dominion ship to another.  I am saying that even despite the HUGE hitpoint difference between bombers and BB's, the bombers are still easier to retreat from battle.

There is no level of strategy that will allow a Breen Battleship to not be chased.  Even if you decimated 2/3 of their fleet, the remaining third will be able to kill your ships if you turn around.  When you attack with Breen Battleships, you will either defeat the enemy and end the game, or you will probably lose every single one of them.

All long range ships share this trait to some degree, with just a tiny difference in speed making a huge difference due to the size of the maps.  E2's and ChonaQ are at the edge of the scale with a speed of 80.  But here we're talking about a speed of 60!

You're free to use any ship you like after you've gained the advantage, but there's no way this ship can be used to turn the tide even if it perfectly counters the enemy you're going against.

posted on February 14th, 2012, 12:47 am

There's nothing arbitrary about comparing one Dominion ship to another.  I am saying that even despite the HUGE hitpoint difference between bombers and BB's, the bombers are still easier to retreat from battle

...ummmm what lol in a battle the bugship , bomber, c-11, even S-2 are not "easy" to retreat especially if the game in ? has progressed to one of the players building the BB. the low end dominion ship fall very fast and on another note which is easier to retreat from battle i can think of many many situations where either ship is just as bad at retreating..... not to mention that many ...not all but....many of the dominions ships are 1= cheap but low health 2=slow 3= have less firepower from the aft. well back to who can make it back to the yard between the bomber and the BB well if there are many ships attacking you .... the bomber will prolly be destroyed before it can turn around and the BB will be lucky to make it half way ....even saying that i think its to hard to argue for or against if the BB is better then the bomber at retreating.

You're free to use any ship you like after you've gained the advantage, but there's no way this ship can be used to turn the tide even if it perfectly counters the enemy you're going against.

  if you have spammed small ship and your opponent is moving into battle ships the BB would work rather well as his battle ships will not do well vs the BB
and if repair is the issue ....build a proxy yard.  also vs v-13 the BB would also work as the v-13 is also slow ,and its not bad vs most of the borg ships. 

posted on February 14th, 2012, 1:02 am

The reason that the Bomber can retreat easier than the BB is because the Bomber can retreat from battles before they begin.  You simply see the enemy and run away.  The Breen Battleship, on the other hand, is unable to retreat the moment enemy ships come within artillery range of it.  A cube could chase it down.

...and that's the last you'll hear from me, after all everything will change in the next patch.  This thread should be considered a Gentlemen's Disagreement and left to die.