Excelsior Class Refit
Post ideas and suggestions on new features or improvements here.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 4:14 am
We have the original Excelsior and the Excelsior-II in the game, but I think it is a bit odd that we do not have the Excelsior refit. Here are relevant schematics for whoever is willing to build this: http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-b.php
posted on February 6th, 2013, 6:10 am
With all due respect, the Excelsior II is the refit, it's the same refit of the USS Lakota. The version your calling a refit isn't a full refit to the class, it's a minor upgrade. I was just reading up on it at Memory Alpha.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 8:37 am
The Devs have talked in the past about Excelsiors gaining the refit style hull at Officer ranks, similar to how the Galaxy class gains the Venture-type phaser strips on the nacelles at officer ranks.
In the Fleet Ops timeline*, the Excelsior II is a completely new hull, created as a sister project to the Sovereign class, and designed to act as a successor class to the Excelsior. They were first deployed during the Dominion War.
Information taken from the following places in the Guide:
http://guide.fleetops.net/guide/apocryp ... -II-Class-
http://guide.fleetops.net/guide/strateg ... raudi-Yard
http://guide.fleetops.net/database/federation (scroll down to the Excelsior II class).
* The Fleet Ops timeline diverges somewhat from the "canon" timeline at some point after the Dominion War.
In the Fleet Ops timeline*, the Excelsior II is a completely new hull, created as a sister project to the Sovereign class, and designed to act as a successor class to the Excelsior. They were first deployed during the Dominion War.
Information taken from the following places in the Guide:
http://guide.fleetops.net/guide/apocryp ... -II-Class-
http://guide.fleetops.net/guide/strateg ... raudi-Yard
http://guide.fleetops.net/database/federation (scroll down to the Excelsior II class).
* The Fleet Ops timeline diverges somewhat from the "canon" timeline at some point after the Dominion War.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 1:19 pm
MadHatter wrote:The Devs have talked in the past about Excelsiors gaining the refit style hull at Officer ranks, similar to how the Galaxy class gains the Venture-type phaser strips on the nacelles at officer ranks.
That would be another good way to do it. Perhaps the mission-specific equipment modules could add to the stardrive section at rank 4, and the outboard impulse engines could add to the saucer section at rank 5? The Enterprise-B was also supposed to have saucer separation like the Galaxy class does.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 7:26 pm
No Excelsior-class starship has ever had Saucer Separation. The same can be said for the Constitution-class, it too never had Saucer Separation.
The first time Saucer Separation was ever seen or thought of was with the Galaxy-class Federation starship.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saucer_separation
There was a TMP concept for Saucer Separation, but it was NEVER used. The article I've linked to at Memory Alpha also shows and explains this. It was thought of for the storyline of Star Trek The Motion Picture for the USS Enterprise NCC 1701 but then never used.
It is also assumed but not confirmed that the Excelsior-class could have Saucer Separation just because of the Enterprise-B's status display showing several potential separation points, but this isn't confirmed or supported in canon, it's just speculation. The same can be said about the Ambassador-class.
The first time Saucer Separation was ever seen or thought of was with the Galaxy-class Federation starship.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Saucer_separation
There was a TMP concept for Saucer Separation, but it was NEVER used. The article I've linked to at Memory Alpha also shows and explains this. It was thought of for the storyline of Star Trek The Motion Picture for the USS Enterprise NCC 1701 but then never used.
It is also assumed but not confirmed that the Excelsior-class could have Saucer Separation just because of the Enterprise-B's status display showing several potential separation points, but this isn't confirmed or supported in canon, it's just speculation. The same can be said about the Ambassador-class.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 7:45 pm
For the Excelsior sep, they are likely talking about the novel of Generations (or was it a TMP movie?) where Sulu ordered a saucer sep drill aboatrd the USS Excelsior or Rikers line in TNG (also novel, I think) about performing reintergration on the USS Hood (an Excelsior Class starship).
First seen used by the Galaxy, but apparently not what the writers intended.
First seen used by the Galaxy, but apparently not what the writers intended.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 8:23 pm
Wait wait, did I hear someone say saucer separation? I came as quick as I could! : 
As I remember actually the lakota was a pretty dang powerful excelsior refit, it basically took down the defiant. (Some of that was plot) Either way I think there are plans somewhere down the line to introduce it as a rare warpin, like the nebula and nova refits.
As I remember actually the lakota was a pretty dang powerful excelsior refit, it basically took down the defiant. (Some of that was plot) Either way I think there are plans somewhere down the line to introduce it as a rare warpin, like the nebula and nova refits.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 8:46 pm
Generally, if you corner the production designers, they'll say that saucer separation is a feature of all Federation ships with Enterprise-like geometry.
I believe that in general the capability was meant solely as an emergency lifeboat, so the bulk of the ship's population has a chance of survival in certain kinds of emergencies. With most of the on-screen classes having the main impulse engines built onto the saucer (except, interestingly, for the Ambassador class where they're on the neck), this might be taken as circumstantial corroboration.
Interestingly, the Richter / Probert collaboration to create an Ambassador class model that's close to Probert's original sketches* (see this article on Drex Files) has both neck pylon and saucer mounted impulse engines, perhaps suggesting that it might have separation capabilities akin to the Galaxy class.
None of this is "proof" to a canon purist, of course. And it's not expected to be. But worth pondering.
* The Ambassador class first seen in Yesterday's Enterprise was based on a simplification of those sketches to save time and money when building the model. One of those "regrettable but acceptable" situations.
I believe that in general the capability was meant solely as an emergency lifeboat, so the bulk of the ship's population has a chance of survival in certain kinds of emergencies. With most of the on-screen classes having the main impulse engines built onto the saucer (except, interestingly, for the Ambassador class where they're on the neck), this might be taken as circumstantial corroboration.
Interestingly, the Richter / Probert collaboration to create an Ambassador class model that's close to Probert's original sketches* (see this article on Drex Files) has both neck pylon and saucer mounted impulse engines, perhaps suggesting that it might have separation capabilities akin to the Galaxy class.
None of this is "proof" to a canon purist, of course. And it's not expected to be. But worth pondering.
* The Ambassador class first seen in Yesterday's Enterprise was based on a simplification of those sketches to save time and money when building the model. One of those "regrettable but acceptable" situations.
posted on February 6th, 2013, 10:04 pm
ray320 wrote:As I remember actually the lakota was a pretty dang powerful excelsior refit, it basically took down the defiant. (Some of that was plot)
sadly nothing can be inferred from that fight, as neither side wanted to destroy the other. both sides were firing to disable, both sides hesitated at key moments, both sides had the opportunity to destroy the other. all we know is that both ships possess weapons capable of hurting the other. which isn't really surprising.
posted on February 7th, 2013, 5:21 am
@Tyler: One books aren't canon, IO have actually been told that a lot of times. But the USS Excelsior was never in Star Trek Generations so it wouldn't have been in the novelization for the movie. I have read many books for Star Trek in the TMP Era (especially for use with making my "Generational Mod") and I haven't read anything about any Excelsior-class starship or the USS Excelsior NCC 2000 having any Saucer Separation drills under the command of Captain Sulu or anyone else for that matter. I'd like to know exactly what book even says that so I could read it, maybe there are a few that I haven't read yet.
@ray320 & Myles: For the USS Lakota almost taking down the USS Defiant, that was actually because the Lakota's crew and captain had orders to actually destroy the Defiant (remember the Admiral that gave the order was actually a Changling/Founder and he didn't want Sisco or Odo to expose him and the Defiant was coming to Earth because of Sisco giving Dax an order to). Sisco had given Dax strict orders for the Defiant not to destroy the Lakota or seriously damage the ship. The crew of the Lakota really gave them no choice, but that is part of the reason why the Lakota was able to take on the Defiant with ease, plus someone had upgraded the USS Lakota making her more powerful than a normal Excelsior-class starship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Kod0F-MD0
@Madhatter: There are a lot of things that are inconsistant in Star Trek and between the different series, and many of the writers would say almost anything and write almost anything in their ideas. But they are even still approved or disapproved by Paramount Pictures and CBS Studios (they own the Star Trek Franchise). For books, Pocket Books has a say for what is and isn't going to be in the books. Two of the major Editiors and those that give Star Trek Authors their ideas and decide what stays in the books and goes before they are published are: Marco Palmieri and Margret Clark (who was laid off though before the manuscript for Star Trek Typhoon Pact Zero Sum Game).
Just because a ship has impulse engines on its saucer section doesn't mean that it could possibly have the ability for Saucer Separation.
@ray320 & Myles: For the USS Lakota almost taking down the USS Defiant, that was actually because the Lakota's crew and captain had orders to actually destroy the Defiant (remember the Admiral that gave the order was actually a Changling/Founder and he didn't want Sisco or Odo to expose him and the Defiant was coming to Earth because of Sisco giving Dax an order to). Sisco had given Dax strict orders for the Defiant not to destroy the Lakota or seriously damage the ship. The crew of the Lakota really gave them no choice, but that is part of the reason why the Lakota was able to take on the Defiant with ease, plus someone had upgraded the USS Lakota making her more powerful than a normal Excelsior-class starship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Kod0F-MD0
@Madhatter: There are a lot of things that are inconsistant in Star Trek and between the different series, and many of the writers would say almost anything and write almost anything in their ideas. But they are even still approved or disapproved by Paramount Pictures and CBS Studios (they own the Star Trek Franchise). For books, Pocket Books has a say for what is and isn't going to be in the books. Two of the major Editiors and those that give Star Trek Authors their ideas and decide what stays in the books and goes before they are published are: Marco Palmieri and Margret Clark (who was laid off though before the manuscript for Star Trek Typhoon Pact Zero Sum Game).
Just because a ship has impulse engines on its saucer section doesn't mean that it could possibly have the ability for Saucer Separation.
posted on February 7th, 2013, 7:02 am
The Memory Beta page for the novelization of Generations indicates that Captain Sulu and the Excelsior are mentioned. My copy is in a box in the garage, so I can't first-hand corroborate that though. Novelizations often add scenes and details that were either cut from the filming script or created from whole cloth, so a few paragraphs with Sulu receiving the news of the apparent loss of Kirk while performing a saucer sep drill wouldn't surprise me.
As for your refutation of what I wrote, please bear in mind I didn't refer to writers--I rarely do. I meant the production designers. People like Probert, Sternbach, Okuda, Drexler, Eaves, and so on. The people who designed the ships and the MSDs. And while what they say may not be outright canon like the film, I certainly think they have the most weight of any offscreen source when it comes to the capabilities of these ships.
You might disagree, and have the position of "not proven" (ie, it's not determined either way whether separation capability exists for classes other then the Galaxy and the Prometheus), and that's fine. Personally, I prefer to believe the designers.
As for your refutation of what I wrote, please bear in mind I didn't refer to writers--I rarely do. I meant the production designers. People like Probert, Sternbach, Okuda, Drexler, Eaves, and so on. The people who designed the ships and the MSDs. And while what they say may not be outright canon like the film, I certainly think they have the most weight of any offscreen source when it comes to the capabilities of these ships.
You might disagree, and have the position of "not proven" (ie, it's not determined either way whether separation capability exists for classes other then the Galaxy and the Prometheus), and that's fine. Personally, I prefer to believe the designers.
posted on February 7th, 2013, 7:55 am
A neutral position might be that the Galaxy was the first class designed to do it as a tactical manoeuvre and be able to re-integrate without having to return to drydock. Previous classes simply used explosive bolts and such for an emergency (warp core breach being one).
If you take the works of the Starfleet Museum, which yes are "non-canon" etc etc but are written in a very very realistic way, akin to a "future history" book, then command section (be it globe, flattened globe or saucer shaped) separation has been seen as an emergency method of evacuation since the Daedalus and Wasp Classes. Makes sense really. Put the (at the time) unstable and dangerous reactors at the back of the ship, and most of the crew up front, and in an emergency allow the two to separate. Rather than losing a whole ship (and more importantly the crew), you ideally only lose a warp core and an engineering hull.
If you take the works of the Starfleet Museum, which yes are "non-canon" etc etc but are written in a very very realistic way, akin to a "future history" book, then command section (be it globe, flattened globe or saucer shaped) separation has been seen as an emergency method of evacuation since the Daedalus and Wasp Classes. Makes sense really. Put the (at the time) unstable and dangerous reactors at the back of the ship, and most of the crew up front, and in an emergency allow the two to separate. Rather than losing a whole ship (and more importantly the crew), you ideally only lose a warp core and an engineering hull.
posted on February 7th, 2013, 8:24 am
@MadHatter: I own both the book and the Special Addition DVD for Star Trek Generations, and there is no mention of Sulu or the Excelsior or Saucer Separation drills at all because it simple doesn't exist.
The production designers don't have any say in what the starships can or cannot do, only canon is the official source for what they can and cannot do. Not books, not websites (other than the official Star Trek website.
It is a canon based fact that the Galaxy-class and the Promethous-class can utilize Saucer Separation.
http://www.st-intelligence.com/tech_database/dom/seperation.php
Sometimes it is seen in non-canon based comics but like I said, they are not canon. Really it's speculation about if there is Saucer Separation on an Excelsior-class starship, especially the refit versions. Some people say they see a Battle Bridge on the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-B's MSD.
Some even say that the Constitution-class could separate via through explosive bolts but at that time would need a spacedock or starbase to put it back together.
The point is, it isn't canon except for the Galaxy-class and the Prometheus-class.
This isn't the only place people have debated this, it's happened on the forums for Star Trek Online.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3876961
My stance is clear, it's not canon, it's not real and I truly believe that the production designers would just about say anything about the ships abilities that they've designed, the logical final say is given by the true producers, those that approve the script for the movie/episode or the manuscript for the book, for the case of what we seen onscreen, that is the final verdict to what the ships can and cannot do.
(Ok, saying this, I just want to add for the record, that I do not want to upset anyone, sound disrespectful or dispute anyone's opinions, just want to state the canon based views. Sorry if I have come off disrespectful, my intentions were to state my views. I respect others views as well. I'd wouldn't mind hearing evidence to dispute any of what I have said as well, especially if you can include sources.)
Who says no one can create a mod with a Saucer Separation for the Excelsior-class or Constitution-class?
I've seen one for the Akira-class and tried it out,mpersonally I think it looked awkward but the concept was cool. If someone did create a Saucer Separation mod for the Excelsior-class or the Constitution-class, canon be damned, I'd be downloading and installing it right away myself! After all its a unique idea I wouldn't mind seeing, and who knows, maybe the Alternate Reality Excelsior-class (or Constitution-class) has Saucer Separation.
The production designers don't have any say in what the starships can or cannot do, only canon is the official source for what they can and cannot do. Not books, not websites (other than the official Star Trek website.
It is a canon based fact that the Galaxy-class and the Promethous-class can utilize Saucer Separation.
http://www.st-intelligence.com/tech_database/dom/seperation.php
Sometimes it is seen in non-canon based comics but like I said, they are not canon. Really it's speculation about if there is Saucer Separation on an Excelsior-class starship, especially the refit versions. Some people say they see a Battle Bridge on the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-B's MSD.
Some even say that the Constitution-class could separate via through explosive bolts but at that time would need a spacedock or starbase to put it back together.
The point is, it isn't canon except for the Galaxy-class and the Prometheus-class.
This isn't the only place people have debated this, it's happened on the forums for Star Trek Online.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3876961
My stance is clear, it's not canon, it's not real and I truly believe that the production designers would just about say anything about the ships abilities that they've designed, the logical final say is given by the true producers, those that approve the script for the movie/episode or the manuscript for the book, for the case of what we seen onscreen, that is the final verdict to what the ships can and cannot do.
(Ok, saying this, I just want to add for the record, that I do not want to upset anyone, sound disrespectful or dispute anyone's opinions, just want to state the canon based views. Sorry if I have come off disrespectful, my intentions were to state my views. I respect others views as well. I'd wouldn't mind hearing evidence to dispute any of what I have said as well, especially if you can include sources.)
Who says no one can create a mod with a Saucer Separation for the Excelsior-class or Constitution-class?
I've seen one for the Akira-class and tried it out,mpersonally I think it looked awkward but the concept was cool. If someone did create a Saucer Separation mod for the Excelsior-class or the Constitution-class, canon be damned, I'd be downloading and installing it right away myself! After all its a unique idea I wouldn't mind seeing, and who knows, maybe the Alternate Reality Excelsior-class (or Constitution-class) has Saucer Separation.
posted on February 7th, 2013, 8:36 am
Not sure if this will be helpful, just trying to do some quick Excelsior-class research before bed to further my knowledge on the class and possibly comeup with some plausible ideas for the class.
http://www.deepspace12.com/excelsiorclass.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~ststcsolda/federation/excelsior_refit/excelsior_refit.pdf
http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/excelsior.html - Read 10.3 of this page.
Here's a quote though:
http://www.deepspace12.com/excelsiorclass.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~ststcsolda/federation/excelsior_refit/excelsior_refit.pdf
http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/excelsior.html - Read 10.3 of this page.
Here's a quote though:
10.3 SEPARATED FLIGHT MODE
During catastrophic systems failure aboard an Excelsior class starship, the Primary Saucer section can detach from the engineering hull and flee via emergency thrusters and the retained forward momentum from emergency separation. This is considered a permanent measure, as reattaching the engineering hull to the saucer section requires a Starbase facility or Repair Depot to completely integrate the two vessels again. Typically, situations that require abandoning the engineering hull result in the destruction of the engineering hull, and upon rescue of the saucer section crew, the vessel is decommissioned.
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posted on February 7th, 2013, 12:21 pm
Je_mezu24 wrote:@ray320 & Myles: For the USS Lakota almost taking down the USS Defiant, that was actually because the Lakota's crew and captain had orders to actually destroy the Defiant (remember the Admiral that gave the order was actually a Changling/Founder and he didn't want Sisco or Odo to expose him and the Defiant was coming to Earth because of Sisco giving Dax an order to). Sisco had given Dax strict orders for the Defiant not to destroy the Lakota or seriously damage the ship. The crew of the Lakota really gave them no choice, but that is part of the reason why the Lakota was able to take on the Defiant with ease, plus someone had upgraded the USS Lakota making her more powerful than a normal Excelsior-class starship.
rewatch that episode. firstly leyton wasn't a changeling, he was temporarily impersonated by a changeling earlier in the first part of that episode, odo discovered him and he fled. leyton was a human, a crackpot, but still human.
rewatch the clip, at first both sides of the battle don't have orders to destroy the other, kira even specifically mentions that the lakota is trying to disable them, not destroy. then worf lets the lakota have several free shots without reply. then in the call leyton changes benteen's orders, allowing her to use quantums to destroy the defiant. she ignores this order in a few minutes. at this time they specifically read out combat strengths, the defiant is damaged badly, shields almost gone. the lakota is apparently more badly damaged, 1 hit from death. casualties match this analysis, with more dead on the lakota. this battle can't be accepted as conclusive evidence of anything. both sides didn't try their hardest, both sides had unnecessary pauses due to not really wanting to shoot at the other ship. the battle tells us almost nothing about whether the lakota or defiant would win in a real fight.
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