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posted on February 19th, 2012, 3:50 pm
It will be interesting though. I'm guessing the profile drawbacks will get smaller as well, which will help mitigate the effect: Currently the Defiant only gets 26% resistance against short range, and yet it always seems to be enough to stay alive.
Without any drawback, the Brel would deal 1.25*.7 = 87.5% damage to the Defiant, as defensive reductions are stronger than offensive bonuses. If you assume TWA reduces defense vs short by 10%, it comes out perfectly to dealing normal damage.
Of course, with that same assumption the Brel would have a modifier of -10% resistance divided by 2 for the Manual Targeting, so 1.25*1.05 = 131% damage. Nothing as extreme as the current setup, but still a significant advantage to be sure.
EDIT: wow, I have a talent for getting on the top of a new page for this thread. Go me!
Without any drawback, the Brel would deal 1.25*.7 = 87.5% damage to the Defiant, as defensive reductions are stronger than offensive bonuses. If you assume TWA reduces defense vs short by 10%, it comes out perfectly to dealing normal damage.
Of course, with that same assumption the Brel would have a modifier of -10% resistance divided by 2 for the Manual Targeting, so 1.25*1.05 = 131% damage. Nothing as extreme as the current setup, but still a significant advantage to be sure.
EDIT: wow, I have a talent for getting on the top of a new page for this thread. Go me!
posted on February 19th, 2012, 3:52 pm
RedEyedRaven wrote:
Pulse weaponry is not necessarily short-range weaponry...
There are pulse-weapons of all ranges, and the B'Rel/K'Vort ones will still be less powerful against the Defiant-class if the AA still reduces short-range weaponry and if the standard-bops remain short-range-based.
based on our current stuff
B'rels and K'vorts = short-ranged, pulse
Defiant = Ablative Armor but Offensive profile.
Guess what? Because of Ablative armor, the damage Bonus the BoP's would usually get will be reduced or eliminated. Defiants will take normal damage instead increased damage.
Also, the bops are pretty much certainly going to be offensive-profile-vessels too.
The Defiant has Pulse-weapons, too. So the Defiant will do more damage to them, not the other way around. Defiants will that way still counter BoPs.
I didn't say they would necessarily be short range but my point was clear as crystal i clearly said briels and kvorts....
By adding the new profile its made the ablative armor pointless most short range craft use pulse like the kvorts and briels. Nothing else has an effect on ablative armour apart from short range and most short range craft that will actually face a defiant fire pulses so by adding this new profile to the defiant the ablative armour is now useless the only thing its seems to be there for now it to make it useless vs long range craft.... assuming it even still has ablative armor as a passive of course i didn't see it on that tool tip.
Whats the point in this passive any more then?
posted on February 19th, 2012, 4:02 pm
MrXT wrote:I didn't say they would necessarily be short range but my point was clear as crystal i clearly said briels and kvorts....
By adding the new profile its made the ablative armor pointless most short range craft use pulse like the kvorts and briels. Nothing else has an effect on ablative armour apart from short range and most short range craft that will actually face a defiant fire pulses so by adding this new profile to the defiant the ablative armour is now useless the only thing its seems to be there for now it to make it useless vs long range craft.... assuming it even still has ablative armor as a passive of course i didn't see it on that tool tip.
Whats the point in this passive any more then?
The point is the damage-reduction from short-ranged weapons. If you don't understand how it will still reduce damage just because the Defiant might receive more damage from pulse-weaponry, I'd suggest you actually bother reading posts.
If a B'Rel has short-ranged pulse-weapons (as a ship with an offensive profile) the Defiant will receive the damage-increase from pulse-weapons, but because the B'Rel's weapons are short-ranged, the Ablative Armor will still REDUCE the received damage. And because the Defiant is an offensive-profiled ship with pulse-weaponry, the B'Rel will take increased damage from the Defiant without a reduction. So the Defiant still counters B'Rels.
I similarly described this in my last post, and I don't understand why you still think AA is pointless.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 4:12 pm
Tryptic wrote:It will be interesting though. I'm guessing the profile drawbacks will get smaller as well, which will help mitigate the effect: Currently the Defiant only gets 26% resistance against short range, and yet it always seems to be enough to stay alive.
not sure where you're getting those numbers.
in the current patch assume base damage = damagebase value from odf for a short range weapon.
defiant has:
AA - 0.5 * all damage from short range, and a negative for long range which isn't relevant.
TWA - a bonus against long range, and 1.24 * damage received from short range weapons.
so we get the maths for damage received from short range beam weapon = 1.24*0.5 = 0.62
a 38% reduction in damage from short range beams.
for short range torps you add in a 20% miss rate due to defiant being medium sized and you get 1.24*0.5*0.8 = 0.496
for short range pulses you add in a 20% reduction in pulse damage due to defiant being medium sized and also get 0.496.
defiant currently slaughters bops. the brel even takes more damage from defiants due to brel having TWA.
in the next patch, TWA and AA will probably change, so the exact numbers can't be predicted, but it still won't be pretty for either bops, but will be worse for taqqy bops.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 4:38 pm
Last edited by Tryptic on February 19th, 2012, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ah. I was using the +50% and -24% additively to get +26%, if it's multiplicative then you're correct, it would be 0.5*1.24 = 62%, that's a lot better than the 74% damage I was thinking.
Still, I'm trying to use the Devs' profile for damage, meaning -25%, 0, and +25% instead of 60%, 80%, 100% like we're used to thinking.
So, current Defiant takes 62% damage from Brels and deals 1.25*1.12 = 140% damage, basically shredding them to pieces. (EDIT: forgot about manual targeting. I always forget about that)
Assuming the new AA is +30% resistance vs short and the new TWA is -10% resistance vs short (which I expect it'll probably be more like 15% but that's up to the devs), then the new Defiant will take 1.25*.7*1.1 = 96% damage from Brels and deal 1.25*1.05 = 131% damage.
Keep in mind that Defiants already don't get targeted very often, while Brels are almost always targeted first. In the new patch neither of them will be targeted often, however they move so fast that people might not use them with defensive ships very often depending on how slow their defensive ships are.
Also, a large focus of this patch is to make it unwise to spam any single shiptype in large numbers, so the goal is to make the Brel viable in small groups but not allow them to be spammed in ridiculous numbers. If they are successful, it won't be such a bad thing that the Defiant doesn't hard-counter as many ships as before.
Still, I'm trying to use the Devs' profile for damage, meaning -25%, 0, and +25% instead of 60%, 80%, 100% like we're used to thinking.
So, current Defiant takes 62% damage from Brels and deals 1.25*1.12 = 140% damage, basically shredding them to pieces. (EDIT: forgot about manual targeting. I always forget about that)
Assuming the new AA is +30% resistance vs short and the new TWA is -10% resistance vs short (which I expect it'll probably be more like 15% but that's up to the devs), then the new Defiant will take 1.25*.7*1.1 = 96% damage from Brels and deal 1.25*1.05 = 131% damage.
Keep in mind that Defiants already don't get targeted very often, while Brels are almost always targeted first. In the new patch neither of them will be targeted often, however they move so fast that people might not use them with defensive ships very often depending on how slow their defensive ships are.
Also, a large focus of this patch is to make it unwise to spam any single shiptype in large numbers, so the goal is to make the Brel viable in small groups but not allow them to be spammed in ridiculous numbers. If they are successful, it won't be such a bad thing that the Defiant doesn't hard-counter as many ships as before.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 5:44 pm
all passives are multiplicative i believe.
you can't mix the two systems. currently the defiant pulses do 124% damage to brels, there is no need to multiply by 1.25, as base damage currently is for pulses against small vessels. ie the damagebase value specifies pulse damage for small vessels, the damage without modification. then medium gets a 0.8 multiplier and large gets a 0.6 multiplier.
in the next patch i think optec said that damagebase value will be the value for allrounders, as allrounders are the profile with no modifications. then the defiants pulses will get the 25% damage bonus against brels, as brels are offensive.
defiant will still smack down brels next patch, the defiant is just much higher tech. defiants vs brels should never be a fight that happens. just like sovvies are invincible to scubes, but that battle doesn't happen.
you can't mix the two systems. currently the defiant pulses do 124% damage to brels, there is no need to multiply by 1.25, as base damage currently is for pulses against small vessels. ie the damagebase value specifies pulse damage for small vessels, the damage without modification. then medium gets a 0.8 multiplier and large gets a 0.6 multiplier.
in the next patch i think optec said that damagebase value will be the value for allrounders, as allrounders are the profile with no modifications. then the defiants pulses will get the 25% damage bonus against brels, as brels are offensive.
defiant will still smack down brels next patch, the defiant is just much higher tech. defiants vs brels should never be a fight that happens. just like sovvies are invincible to scubes, but that battle doesn't happen.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 6:51 pm
RedEyedRaven wrote:The point is the damage-reduction from short-ranged weapons. If you don't understand how it will still reduce damage just because the Defiant might receive more damage from pulse-weaponry, I'd suggest you actually bother reading posts.
If a B'Rel has short-ranged pulse-weapons (as a ship with an offensive profile) the Defiant will receive the damage-increase from pulse-weapons, but because the B'Rel's weapons are short-ranged, the Ablative Armor will still REDUCE the received damage. And because the Defiant is an offensive-profiled ship with pulse-weaponry, the B'Rel will take increased damage from the Defiant without a reduction. So the Defiant still counters B'Rels.
I similarly described this in my last post, and I don't understand why you still think AA is pointless.
Because as i already said and if you bothered to read mine the two passives are essentially cancelling each other out. The defiant offensive profile makes it take increased damage from pulse weapons but the ablative armor makes it take reduced damage from short range craft.... both the kvort and briel are short ranged pulse firing ships the defiant may still counter them both but no longer by passives.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 7:23 pm
MrXT wrote:Because as i already said and if you bothered to read mine the two passives are essentially cancelling each other out.
No they don't. The maths for the Defiant's passives are a little more complicated (in the current version) than you obviously think. The Defiant has two passives, one of them reducing short-range-damage while increasing the long-range damage dealt to it. The other passive increases short-range damage a little and increases the damage the Defiant deals to long-ranged ships.
So what's the big deal with what's going to be in the next version? Sometimes passives are compensating each other.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 10:02 pm
Actually Raven, MrXT's right on this one; you mixed up the passives.
AA reduces incoming damage from short range with the drawback of dealing 10% less damage to long.
TWA increases the damage dealt to long with the drawback of taking extra damage from short.
So by the time it's all added in, the new Defiant will not have very much damage reduction against Brels. it will however still deal very nice damage with its pulses (see my post above for estimated numbers) I think it'll still work pretty nicely as a counter to brels.
AA reduces incoming damage from short range with the drawback of dealing 10% less damage to long.
TWA increases the damage dealt to long with the drawback of taking extra damage from short.
So by the time it's all added in, the new Defiant will not have very much damage reduction against Brels. it will however still deal very nice damage with its pulses (see my post above for estimated numbers) I think it'll still work pretty nicely as a counter to brels.
posted on February 19th, 2012, 10:11 pm
the values of AA and TWA may change, so we don't know what the new damage will be, hence this argument isn't really going anywhere fast.
posted on February 20th, 2012, 2:59 am
I know the numbers are WIP, but the changes to the E2's QTorp launchers are interesting. Smaller volley, but more damage per torpedo and shorter delay between volleys, which add up to an overall slight increase in DPS. Not sure if I like the "better against weak targets" addition, but that's more based on being concerned that it's an ability that's "paid for" but might not actually be much use.
posted on February 20th, 2012, 4:10 am
With their long-range sensors, the E2 might make a good ambush unit - able to hit incoming raiders before they even have LOS on their targets.
posted on February 20th, 2012, 7:35 pm
yes, I was posting something like that earlier.
All ships shot at from out of their range will have an experience similar to what is often the case with ships like serkas, veqlaraghs, and teutos.
You know they're there only because you hear them, but often I have to wait to see where they are coming from. First volley gets your attention, but then you need second and third volleys to tell you where they are coming from, and how to best intercept.
All ships shot at from out of their range will have an experience similar to what is often the case with ships like serkas, veqlaraghs, and teutos.
You know they're there only because you hear them, but often I have to wait to see where they are coming from. First volley gets your attention, but then you need second and third volleys to tell you where they are coming from, and how to best intercept.
posted on February 20th, 2012, 7:37 pm
Oh this just keeps getting better and better!
posted on February 20th, 2012, 11:19 pm
Imagine what you could do with 5-10 Veq's and a few cloaked scouts! (And alternate armaments, of course.)
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