borg too powerful

[Anonymous]

posted on January 21st, 2009, 5:38 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 21st, 2009, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I like the Borg the way they are now. An enemy who lets the Borg turtle and grow in strength shows strategic ignorance; its just not the way to fight the Borg. I like that; it promotes agressive gameplay, both from the Borg and the enemy.

but where is the borg able to be aggressive and actaully get to build cubes.
If i am trying to be aggressive
I first need to waste resources on useless scout cubes to get priority up.

Scout cubes are useless.
So what am i going to get at in being aggressive with teh borg when te initial ships are weak as far as weapons go.
Also - the resource consumption of borg ships is high even for the initial level ships.

considering the rate at which ersources are being mined now, having to wait for priority, resources, and research, and then get ships while the othe races have ships in sheer numbers that plainly overrun the fleet even the best resource allocation fot eh borg can acquire in the same time is Daft.

So when one speaks about strategising and being aggressive, you need the matrial to build wioth and actually be able to build ships with teeth in order tobe aggressive.
The borg at this time due to ineptly weak starting ships like the scout cube fall short of this.

In fact I would rather have a set of interceptors of th outset with more teeth instead of this daft cube in order to start with the Borg "offense" as you said".
And starting with interceptors a the outset, when miners take 5 minutes or so to get the resources back to the station in order to complete the collection, makes the possibility of even reachi9ng a cube level very very slow.
Then to get cubes that dont do much alone against the numbers the feds or klings or roms can sendat them leaves the Borg side with absolutely no playing ability.
Even the dominion have this problem, to a lesser degree. getting stuck on supply shortages when unable to at least mine from the same moon simultaneously - 1 diliothium/tritanium collector and 1 supply collector.

So most certainly, with these 2 powers things are not "fine as they are".

posted on January 21st, 2009, 6:02 pm

u people are scaring me when u say that the bord and the dominion are UP

posted on January 21st, 2009, 6:04 pm

u people are scaring me when u say that the bord and the dominion are UP

UP?

posted on January 21st, 2009, 6:24 pm

UP?

up = underpowered
but i have v limited vocabulary so i can be mistaken

posted on January 21st, 2009, 6:42 pm

up = underpowered
but i have v limited vocabulary so i can be mistaken

ah. not quite underpowered. just under-resourced.
The amount resources that can be collected by these 2 in relation to the demand and development time of ships makes them unable to keep up with the feds/roms/klings in numbers.

while this is a complete no no for the Domnion who canonically are to have abilities far exceeding any of the alpha powers, the Borg can suffice with this.

However, subject to the following caveat:

1. the borg mainstay ships like the cubes, diamonds, and spheres need to be bumped up if not for offense then at least for defense.
2. the borg stations need to have more firepower to at least have some chance of standing against the early numbers of the feds.
Some form of balancing is need ed here

In regards to the Dominion, the issues are not much.
1. since we have very limited moons on most maps, for the Dominion at least tit would make sense to count a miner and a supply miner as different entities and allow them to mine the same moon simultaneously.
meaning  no 2 dilithium or trilithium miners per moon. But certainly one miner that mines dilithium, and the otehr that is mining the same moon for supply.

2. The jem'hadar scarab ships be allowed to be built faster if not cheaper. This will add to the pack feature mentioned by Baron in another post, as well as add to the number effect of the dominion.
the capitals don't need to change.
the cruisers, can be tweaked a little either faster or cheaper.
This will bring the Dominion more in line with what is their usual style, and since the scarab ships are low end ships, their low power at this time will not give the doms an overwhelming advantage or ability to rush.

The best balance against any rush is a strong turret.
Which is why we would need to tweak our turrets so that they put up more of a fight against the lower class ships like the brel, rhienn and jem'hadar fighters.
After all, we;re talking about an enemy base, not a push over walk through.
think chintoka.

posted on January 21st, 2009, 6:57 pm

a game then. i'll gladly play dominion against your feds/roms/klings. whoever wins is right

posted on January 21st, 2009, 7:08 pm

The Dominion turrets could do with a increase to their firerate. They are quite slow, most targets enter then exit it's weapon range after only a few shots.

[tom]

posted on January 21st, 2009, 7:12 pm

Last edited by tom on January 21st, 2009, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

place them well
comparing to romulan turrets ... needless to say i think

posted on January 21st, 2009, 8:24 pm

"A race is only as good as the player who is playing them."

With the exception of Nanites the Borg are fine the way they are. I hear people constantly complaining about how they are constantly on resource shortages etc. That is not because the Borg harvest resources slowly, that's because you don't know how to manage your resources properly. I am no pro at Fleet Ops, but in all my multiplayer matches (which is quite a lot, into the hundreds now) I have never lost once as the Borg. I have never once had a resource shortage, Scout Cubes are very useful for initial defense, and the rate of priority gain is spot on. As I've said, there's only 1 thing the Borg need changed: Nanites. They are OP. 1 swarm of Nanites guarantees all enemy ships nearby are dead. My suggestion is to nerf Nanites, or just make a cube even more ridiculously expensive. Once again I'm going to stick to my guns and say it, "A race is only as good as the player who is playing as them."

The Dominion though, I agree need work. They were fine before the patch, but then all their costs were increased. This horribly ruined the flow of resources as I am constantly out of cash when I play as Dom. It's odd how Fleet Ops took my favorite side (Dominion), made them broken in the resource department, and took my most hated side (Borg) and made them the funnest and best side in my mind. Odd how that worked out. 

posted on January 21st, 2009, 8:32 pm

"A race is only as good as the player who is playing them."

[...] I hear people constantly complaining about how they are constantly on resource shortages etc. That is not because the Borg harvest resources slowly, that's because you don't know how to manage your resources properly. [...] This horribly ruined the flow of resources as I am constantly out of cash when I play as Dom. [...]

nicely said
but u're right of course.

posted on January 21st, 2009, 9:21 pm

I never said I was the best player, I'm not blowing my trumpets. I was simply defending the Borg (which pertains to the topic). I have played quite a few people on this forums (e.i. most except for the Fleet Ops team themselves. Go ahead and ask Archeon, who continually defeats me when I play as Dom as he's a pro with the Romulans (and quite honestly I think he is the best all around player), but he can agree that I am good with Borg since I mop him up with them.

EDIT: And it seems the comment this was a reply to has vanished. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

posted on January 21st, 2009, 9:31 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 21st, 2009, 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"A race is only as good as the player who is playing them."

that's a moot point.
Aside from the rhetoric, we do see that the borg miners take longer to collect. We do see that the collection rate puts the research and development back a bit.
Couple that with the high costs of borg ships, and we end up with a few ships that are overwhelmed by teh fed swarms.
So yeah, it does depend on the skill of players.
but, anyone can see that the Borg are too delayed. a few cubes while the other races hve at least 2 squads of capitals
With that in mind the borg cube falls short of its "all powerful" or "imposing" status and just becomes a target that can be gangraped by the alpha quad powers.

Therefore, we certainly need one of the following:
1. ramp up the power of the borg cubes
2. ramp up the resource collection speed. which is why I suggested a station that feeds directly from teh moon and raises resource supplies. the rate can be worked at about 500/4 secs

Another aspect is dealing with the uselessness of scout cubes. Scout cubes  barely scratch the shields of construction ships. that's how useless they are.
The borg cant create anything till prority is increased, and attacks or engagements with the enemy dont increase priority. just building these dumb ships and wasting resources.
To complicate that, each borg ships needs a separate uplink node, so time goes in building that too.

At the end of it all if we want to focus on the limited quantity of borg ships aspect of canon star trek, then the power aspect cannot be ignored.
Otherwise we have a situation where the fed fleet can simply overwhelm a ship that is more like a starbase, than a real borgcube.
And the borg bases especially miners are left defenseless when the other races are able to penetrate the base and destroy teh central facilities.
So in both cases, the borg do indeed need to be reworked.

and cannot be left under "player skill" as the only excuse.

As regards the Dominion, I have seen the dominion unable to produce the capital ships that the feds/roms/klings have. Resources are not a problem. Supplies are.
The dominion miners can mine 1 miner at a time. All that was requested was that the miners be able - for dominion - mine supplies and resources simultaneously from the same moon - only if 1 miner is a resource miner and the other one with it is a supply miner.
miners themselves collect few supplies.
nothing to compare to the supply requirements for building a battelcruiser.
Compare that again to the feds who are pumping out galaxies and sovs, and we ultimately have given Dominion build advantages to the Feds, and handicapped the race that should have that ability.

of course, he'll kill you as Rom vs dom, cos the Dom ships take up more supplies, while at teh same time not yielding much better ships than the roms, while the roms are not constrained by supplies to build.
the borg slowness would be partially compensated for with Roms, since Tavs take a little longer to build at the outset, and if he were going for Tavs he would have been slow to get them churned out.
Were he to try to rush u using refitted rhienns and generixes you would not stand a chance. you would have been building your scout cubes and would only be able to put up some resistance if u played assimilator to get the early assimilator to bolster ur fleet. which too is only moderately efficient.
If he waited forthe tavs u would be able to get a few assimilators quickly and hit him.
But at teh expense of ever getting enough resources to build cubes.
Compare that to the feds with galaxies and sovs coming at you, or even if he chooses to build D'deridexes or the fork looking warbirds, and he would mess you up without you even having a chance to respond.
That's the main problem we see with the borg. which why we need stronger stations to prevent plain rushes.

Think of him even playing klings. Were he to Bop rush you the Borg would not stand a chance. not with those scoutcubes and certainly not with the optmize avatar.

The main problem is not whether you can mop someone up or not. the issue is the dynamics of being able to build.
And as far as it is perceivable, the borg are at a disadvantage that is not compensated for enough in ship strength, and the dom are at a shortage of resources which leave them in only a slightly better position than the borg.

posted on January 21st, 2009, 9:40 pm

I guess there's only one way for me to help my case that the Borg are fine with the exception of Nanites. Anyone who has Hamachi join channel Fleetops V3, password 123. I'm up for a game.

posted on January 21st, 2009, 9:45 pm

I guess there's only one way for me to help my case that the Borg are fine with the exception of Nanites. Anyone who has Hamachi join channel Fleetops V3, password 123. I'm up for a game.

fair enough. if i had he mod installed on this pc atm, i could have come on.
try using borg. and have someone play roms/klings/or feds and try to attack u early on - not necessarily rush you.

Let's then see.

Let us all know once ure done. with the details of how you 2 played.

Also, don't forge to include the Dominion as your next match. Try using a map suited to 1 on 1 for the correct number of moons. Using an 8 player for 2 ppl wont be able to demonstrate anyting since there will be excessive moons in the unplayed slots..

posted on January 21st, 2009, 9:50 pm

Will do. Though I did say this was only to prove how good the Borg are, not the Dominion.