Are the Feds really so overpowered?

posted on September 11th, 2010, 8:26 am

Warp-in is just fine and not OP, every ship has a counter.

You dont get the point. Its not that the ships cant be countered. Its the fact that:

1. Warpins can appear all over the map
2. One time cost for free ships during the whole game
3. not all factions get counters in early game -> Torped refit
4. not all potential counters (passive) work nice since size and weapons also matter...
5. 2 lucky warpins (e.g. Galaxy, Ambassador, Nebula) can almost ruin a game.
6. Warpins are typically backed up by small yard ships possibly countering the Warpin counters.
7. Warpins are even useful in late game!

The warpin is OP as it is. Try a double yard Fed strategy without warpins and Fed are much harder to play. For me it would be nice if the SFC would be an option beside the large yard (like Rom special buildings). So you can have a large yard OR an SFC but not both. And give every faction counters from the small yard.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 9:16 am

i still think that warpin causes more trouble than its worth, but so far im the only one that thinks so.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 1:02 pm

Play without warp in, and unless you are a better player than your opponent you will loose badly. (I appreciate the irony that the better player should win).  It doesn't need removing, it needs tweaking, which is what we understand it going to happen in the next patch.

Now we can wait for this and the subsequent cries of "The feds are underpowered!" 

posted on September 11th, 2010, 1:11 pm

Play without warp in, and unless you are a better player than your opponent you will loose badly. (I appreciate the irony that the better player should win).  It doesn't need removing, it needs tweaking, which is what we understand it going to happen in the next patch.

Now we can wait for this and the subsequent cries of "The feds are underpowered!" 

I don't think I was going to respond in this topic before this, but that's simply not true. Double yard Feds was always stronger than a fast tech to Warp-In, and will continue to be so.

Imo most OP claims come if certain combinations of factions encounter...take Dominion vs Klingons, or Dominion vs Rom or Rom vs Klingons for example. All these games are indeed winnable but not in a fair way if similar skilled players fight. Mostly this is due to one ship that cant be countered by the majority of the other factions available ships...or because most of a players ships can be countered by a single ship of the other faction. My suggestion is to make all counters available in each races small yard and give additional options in the large yard. Or at least each race gets a SR, LR, MR counter in the small yard...and one that can stand a chance (not like e.g. Brel vs Rhienn).

Sorry, the devs don't like making every faction have exactly the same abililties and unit types for every faction at tier 1. This isn't rock/paper/scissors Ops, this is tactics and strategy Ops. If you are having trouble with those combinations, you need to experiment more.

[Elim]

posted on September 11th, 2010, 1:24 pm

Last edited by Elim on September 11th, 2010, 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think warpin is slightly op, of course it don't means instant win, but makes the game to other factions as hard as it shouldn't be. It gives so big advantage to an experienced player, that the only way to win for his opponent is if he can force the fed player to make mistakes, and ab6ve a certain skill level managing this becomes very hard or almost impossible.

The main problem (in my opinion) is that the fed faction is too well balanced compared to other races. There are only really narrow window of oppurtunities to crush a good fed player. (of course I'm talking about 1v1's as it should be relevant for game balance)

The best solution would be as Drrrrr mentioned before, to balance the other factions, make them have as many countering options as the feds have, but it would/will take a horrible amout of time. As the fed redo is about to come in the next patch, the best option is now to somehow nerf the feds. The devs really should be careful about this, because in my opinion it will be very easy to "over-nerf" them.

Sorry, the devs don't like making every faction have exactly the same abililties and unit types for every faction at tier 1. This isn't rock/paper/scissors Ops, this is tactics and strategy Ops. If you are having trouble with those combinations, you need to experiment more.

Well yeah, thats why I basically like FO better than startcraft (the other cause of I retired from hardcore starcraft is the speed  ), but some adjustments need to be made about things were mentioned by Drrrrr (for example B-8 aginst klingons/romulans  , distruptor rhienns aginst klingons/non B-8 dominion)  Yeah. sure you were able to beat the evil proxy yard B-8 rush Dom, but I think it shouldn't be so hard as it is now.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 1:42 pm

Countering is done not with just passives, but with speed, special abilities, range etc. Each faction does have such abilities which can be used well if people took the time to think more about them in the current patch.

Unlike what has been said, Klingons versus Dominion can be accomplished in several ways - it's not a simple matter of "drrrrr, this one unit counters ALL the rest". B8 Rush has been an effective strategy against Klingons since 3.1.2, and right now it may be slightly too effective. Of course we also have in team games the tech up to T-15, or in 1v1 we have the micromanagement war of Bugs versus K'Vorts.

In one of our latest games Elim, I do recall you said "wow, I've never seen that strategy before". What makes you think there aren't more like that? What makes anybody think there aren't more like that in fact? The reality is that there are a lot of strategies out there that people are completely ignoring when it comes to talking about balance.

If you really want to test balance with and without warp-in, do so. Try games with no warp-in. Try games where you let your opponent know where you warp, and where you stockpile resources to simulate a cost and where you remove steamrunners from the build. It's not hard to do, but I guess people like taking the easy route of complaining so much that they forget how to talk about balance in a game with 5 factions, and 10 subfactions.

Well yeah, thats why I basically like FO better than startcraft (the other cause of I retired from hardcore starcraft is the speed  ), but some adjustments need to be made about things were mentioned by Drrrrr (for example B-8 aginst klingons/romulans  , distruptor rhienns aginst klingons/non B-8 dominion)  Yeah. sure you were able to beat the evil proxy yard B-8 rush Dom, but I think it shouldn't be so hard as it is now.

I believe Drrrr is referencing that supposedly Dominion is annihilated by Klingons, not the other way around (his K'Vort complaining should be testament to that) . Nobody said everything was perfect, but there are obviously strategies now that are available that work, even if balancing needs to be tweaked . It isn't a simple matter of "OMG NERF NERF NERF". Only someone with limited experience can say that without realizing what the repercussions across all 10 subraces will be. Once again I strongly suggest to people to actually test in multiple ways their statements, and not just whine.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 2:08 pm

I completely agree with, all things you said. Sure I admit I don't have enough experience to judgde all possibilities what works aginst what. (I think I am  also one of the online players who experiments a lot  with unorthodox starting build ups, my latest discovery is the shrike/sekras strat )

If you really want to test balance with and without warp-in, do so. Try games with no warp-in. Try games where you let your opponent know where you warp, and where you stockpile resources to simulate a cost and where you remove steamrunners from the build.

Well, I'm not sure I'm qualified to draw long term consequences of those kind of experiments, but if you need somebody to test with, I would be glad to help yaa. 

posted on September 11th, 2010, 2:19 pm

Indeed you do and that's most excellent. I'd definitely like to test more with you

posted on September 11th, 2010, 2:52 pm

Countering is done not with just passives, but with speed, special abilities, range etc. Each faction does have such abilities which can be used well if people took the time to think more about them in the current patch.

7 Passives, 3 Weapontypes, 3 ship sizes, 4 chassi types, x specials, techtrees, 5 * 2 factions, strong impact of map size and layout etc.

Even with most simple math the complexity of combination of these variables should be understandable by everyone. In consequence it is extremly hard (not to say impossible) to make each race unique AND balanced...

so there are 2 options...either make the uniqueness less or reduce the complexity of the variables...
For starcraft it took year to balance a game with 3 races and a less complex damage system...

I do agree that FO IS playable...but its is ages away from beeing balanced for all intended situations. You can claim "there are counters for everthing but you are just to dumb to see it" as much as you want...some counter strategies are not accessible in time since you neglect resources, map layout as well as other variables in your view.

Referring to that B8 thing...the rush works only if certain circumstances are given e.g. you have a good position for a proxy yard or get a crit mass fast enough (econ.). Beside B8 I dont see any working strat to respond to a Kvort/KBQ mixed fleet (in time). If B8 strat fails for some reason your whole game is lost. On the other hand...if a crit mass of B8 is reached vs Klingon or Rom, the transporter ability + weapons is so hard to counter that you have almost lost the game.

Dominus you seem to forget that we do not talk about strats only...we also talk about map layout, time, player skill etc.

[Elim]

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:03 pm

Last edited by Elim on September 11th, 2010, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Referring to that B8 thing...the rush works only if certain circumstances are given e.g. you have a good position for a proxy yard or get a crit mass fast enough (econ.). Beside B8 I dont see any working strat to respond to a Kvort/KBQ mixed fleet (in time). If B8 strat fails for some reason your whole game is lost. On the other hand...if a crit mass of B8 is reached vs Klingon or Rom, the transporter ability + weapons is so hard to counter that you have almost lost the game.

I don't want to ruin the thread and go, offtopic, but... If you want we can try it Drrrrr. On the most popular 1v1 maps (Duel, Fued, Duel II), you can be almost sure if you spam only kvort's and kbeq, about after 10-12 mins of gameplay, I will have more k'vort's than you. 

On the other hand, a nice bug/bomber mix can really work really well aginst klings.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:18 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on September 11th, 2010, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7 Passives, 3 Weapontypes, 3 ship sizes, 4 chassi types, x specials, techtrees, 5 * 2 factions, strong impact of map size and layout etc.

Even with most simple math the complexity of combination of these variables should be understandable by everyone. In consequence it is extremly hard (not to say impossible) to make each race unique AND balanced...

so there are 2 options...either make the uniqueness less or reduce the complexity of the variables...
For starcraft it took year to balance a game with 3 races and a less complex damage system...

I do agree that FO IS playable...but its is ages away from beeing balanced for all intended situations. You can claim "there are counters for everthing but you are just to dumb to see it" as much as you want...some counter strategies are not accessible in time since you neglect resources, map layout as well as other variables in your view.

Referring to that B8 thing...the rush works only if certain circumstances are given e.g. you have a good position for a proxy yard or get a crit mass fast enough (econ.). Beside B8 I dont see any working strat to respond to a Kvort/KBQ mixed fleet (in time). If B8 strat fails for some reason your whole game is lost. On the other hand...if a crit mass of B8 is reached vs Klingon or Rom, the transporter ability + weapons is so hard to counter that you have almost lost the game.

Dominus you seem to forget that we do not talk about strats only...we also talk about map layout, time, player skill etc.

Many more passives than that, and many more variables in general .

You talk about Starcraft, maps, and balanced in the same breath, but that really oversimplifies the situation. Fleet Ops is an ongoing project unlike Starcraft and it will continue to add units and "complexity" as you put it. Complexity does not remove balance - it makes it more subtle and yes, more difficult for the majority of players to fully grasp. I do not necessarily expect you to understand this, because you weren't an online player in 3.0.7 and below however. With added complexity, FO has gotten more balanced, not less  ^-^. Looking at just the passives, one can see that a K'Vort should clobber a Bug, but in gameplay, this is not necessarily the case. It is simply shortsighted to think that nothing can change for the better with additions - or to try to comprehend the massive changes that will be occurring in FO.

Incidentally, in any game, maps will always change balance, as they certainly do in Starcraft.

Player skill - well, that is the most difficult thing to balance in any game. Weak units can become superb in the hands of skilled players, and if we pit players of differing skill with respective factions, you can be sure that the outcome might dramatically change with each game.

I agree that there are certain strategies that are not accessible in time - fortunately there are few of them, and nobody uses them effectively. Once again, I reiterate, that FO is not static, and there is always balancing work going on for strategies that you haven't even considered yet or tactics that are already known to be problematic . FO balance relies as much on numerous tests as it does on the ability to code changes.

In the end, playing an RTS is as much about knowing strategy and tactics as it is about knowing your opponent and knowing the map. These things are inseparable in any game, and there will never be a situation where you can throw two equal opponents into a game and expect the first game to go like the second, third, etc. People learn from each other, there are never equally skilled players, and that will always bias gameplay. There is no such thing as absolute truth in balancing; one can only approach balance.

Also, please do remember Drrr, that it is always wise to test multiple (read: many) times before stating "this is so". This eagerness to do so works against the very balance you seek.

The rest of your argument is based merely on supposition, so I have no comments.


I think we are venturing further and further offtopic Elim, so... down the rabbit hole we go!

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:26 pm

I don't want to ruin the thread and go, offtopic, but... If you want we can try it Drrrrr. On the most popular 1v1 maps (Duel, Fued, Duel II), you can be almost sure if you spam only kvort's and kbeq, about after 10-12 mins of gameplay, I will have more k'vort's than you. 

On the other hand, a nice bug/bomber mix can really work really well aginst klings.

I have watched a B8 vs. K'Vort and B8 vs. K'beadjQ test (dominus was Klingons.) If you do double yard B8, and attack with 4-5 B8 and the proto, then the Klingons have little hope of stopping you. I think the major difference between Klingons winning and B8s winning is if the Dom player keeps their B8 sitting next to a yard until enuff are built.
You will not have Kvorts after 10-12 minutes unless you completely abandoned trying to protect your mining while it gets slaughtered.

Bug/Bomber is another Dom/Kling balancing problem, not as severe as B8. I think the main reason Bugs are so powerful at stopping Klingon expansion is just that they are faster and longer ranged than K'Vorts (why are they only 120 speed if they're short-ranged?)

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:30 pm

The warpin is OP as it is. Try a double yard Fed strategy without warpins and Fed are much harder to play.

I have to disagree on this one. You can get sooo many monsoons and intrepids that the enemy fleet will virtually have no chance, whatsoever, to catch up to you while you destroy all of their mining. Against the romulans, once, I was heading to their expansion to raid it with 14 monsoons, and 3 sabers, when I saw his fleet decloak in front of mine. All I had to do was turn around and head right for his base mining and I could easily outrun his lahvals and rheinns. He tried to pull his miners back to his base, but the High Density Shield Generators took a lot less damage from his starbase. All in All, I got warpins soon after that and romulan was toast...

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:36 pm

I have watched a B8 vs. K'Vort and B8 vs. K'beadjQ test (dominus was Klingons.) If you do double yard B8, and attack with 4-5 B8 and the proto, then the Klingons have little hope of stopping you. I think the major difference between Klingons winning and B8s winning is if the Dom player keeps their B8 sitting next to a yard until enuff are built.
You will not have Kvorts after 10-12 minutes unless you completely abandoned trying to protect your mining while it gets slaughtered.

Bug/Bomber is another Dom/Kling balancing problem, not as severe as B8. I think the main reason Bugs are so powerful at stopping Klingon expansion is just that they are faster and longer ranged than K'Vorts (why are they only 120 speed if they're short-ranged?)

Bear in mind that was still only two tests with two strategies only on one map. We tested a few more times that day, and a few more times the day after to get some reasonable conclusions . The B8 also becomes stronger the smaller the map - on The Reef, the risk is small as cloak is so powerful and you can keep the B8's running around.

K'Vorts are slower due to a medium range passive and cloak 

Bombers really do diddly extra against K'Vorts - they do the same base damage as a Bug, except a Bug can retreat, whereas a Bomber is dead in the water. Once again, remember that passives are not the end all. Size, range, firing arc, speed etc all play a crucial role 

posted on September 11th, 2010, 3:41 pm

2 people think feds are underpowered