First Impressions, and some questions

posted on April 29th, 2009, 2:16 pm

This is based on a multiplayer mod... To be multiplayer you have to have the same database as your opponent or bad things happen. Hence why i dropped the suggestion down.

I haven't ever modded before and while i might consider making a seperate directory so i can have a MP FO and a SP FO i just don't have the time. Exams season starts soon for me and i will be revising... I don't want to spend my free time then learning how to mod.

It was just some observations and requests. A moderator hadn't answered the post and the replies i got were from other people. As such of course i was going to argue my side of the fence. To explode because of that is a bit strange?

I'm sorry but i'm not going to just shut up because you disagree with me and think we should all mod or own games. As the Dev just said that would stop fleet ops being a multiplayer mod wouldn't it...

Kinda the whole point of the game!!!

The dev has replied and i will leave it at that... However people seem to be quite explosive at times over someone sticking to a suggestion untill a dev replies... and there is nothing wrong with that attitude, the explosive people need to remember by exploding like that you are actually being more forceful in your opinion than i am... Which kinda defeats the point of free speach no?

As i said, i've got my answer from a Dev and i'll leave it at that now.

posted on April 29th, 2009, 11:16 pm

Back on the excelsior topic: since excelsiors were produced for so long and so many (hundreds, perhaps even thousands were made), it stands to reason that there would still be quite a few left even after the dominion war. However there were only 6 galaxy class spaceframes (that i can recall) and even allowing the possiblity that more were built you're only looking at 20 on the outside. Thus the reason why you see them so much as a warp in.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 4:05 am

If it would be just my decision, Galaxys would be very rare out of the reason you just mentioned. On the other hand - well - we saw that many Galaxys in DS9 Fleets.. well.. and the fans would rip my head of if i would reduce the Galaxy warp-in chance Its a very beautiful and dominant Federation vessel, and thats cool too So the current warp-in chance for her should be fine

posted on April 30th, 2009, 12:42 pm

3 Galaxy class ships were destroyed before A call to arms and Sacrifice of the Angels.

However lets consider a few things here people.

IN Sacrifice of the Angels ALONE you see a single pan shot of some of the 200 ships and no less than Eight Galaxies. You are saying that a fleet made up of remenants from other fleets featured Eight of the NINE remaining Galaxy class fleet commandships?

The consider also "What you leave behind" and all the other fleet actions which show regular shots of Galaxy and not a few loses.

Finally Starfleet has several fleets, in fact we know there are at least TEN from "In the Pale moonlight." Considering all through DS9 that every fleet response we here about is lead by a galaxy you start to think could there be more.

Sisko also says "Order Galaxy wings 20 and 21 to attack those galor class destroyers" Unless a galaxy wing is a single ship that suggests the Federation has quite a few Galaxies.


Finally if your quoted Galaxies being rare then Sovereign class starships should be 0-2 or 0-3 limited. If you then counter that Sovereign's have been built more it would stand far more to reason that Galaxies would be built over Excelsior class starships given they are newer ships?

posted on April 30th, 2009, 1:50 pm

Sisko also says "Order Galaxy wings 20 and 21 to attack those galor class destroyers" Unless a galaxy wing is a single ship that suggests the Federation has quite a few Galaxies.

That is likely referring to a single Galaxy class ship leading a wing of other ships. or it might be just a code name. It seems highly unlikely that they would have just fleets of battleships around, considering the construction time.

Finally if your quoted Galaxies being rare then Sovereign class starships should be 0-2 or 0-3 limited. If you then counter that Sovereign's have been built more it would stand far more to reason that Galaxies would be built over Excelsior class starships given they are newer ships?

Excelsior class starships were built en mass and there were just so many of them around still so thats why they are a warpin ship.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 2:45 pm

Still doesn't explain how we can spam Sovereigns that are undoubtably far more advanced and limited in number than the Galaxy class starships.


That and i still don't think there are only twelve galaxy class. It doesn't make sense at all.... Not when you account fleet loses and apperances throughout DS9, TNG and VOY

posted on April 30th, 2009, 3:46 pm

The difference is:

You are building the Sovereigns. Given the ressources and infrastructure, noone can stop you from building Sovereigns.

Galaxies are old ships, you can warp in existing ones, but building new ones from your yards is like telling a shipyard to build WWII era submarines instead of current ones. Or like building 50s cars in current automobile factories.

So, the supply of Nebulas, Galaxies and Excelsiors is limited by the amount of ships already in existance. You can update old ships, but not build new ones of the same kind.

Current models can be build anytime you want, therefore most are not limited (except of course for balancing reasons or "because they are so sophisticated that the resources and man power required would be ... yadda, yadda, yadda" etc. ).

posted on April 30th, 2009, 6:24 pm

Okay and so far everything said has been valid, however it all proves my point to the letter.

The Excelsior Mark II was The enterprise B (old)

Even if you took the Excelsior Mark II to be based on the Lakota it was still outstripped by the defiant easily.


The fact remains that the Galaxy is a larger ship with more standard but modern equipment on it. Its hull frame is younger and it has more space to accomidate for technological updates.

From any realtisic, fantasy or sci fi view it is unlikely in the EXTREME that Starfleet would stop producing Galaxy class starships before exelcsior mark II class.

Especially considering the success of them as Multi-Purpose ships capable of being a command ship, a ship of the line OR a scientific ship. Something that the Defiant, Sovereign class cannot do. I assume the Descent (based on Sovereign) can't and i highly doubt the Avalon or Phalanx can.

In fact the only ship that could come close would be the Excelsior but to keep up the excelsior has to be refitted more heavily than the galaxy. Even then its facilities in all areas are going to be less than the Galaxy.


I mean fair enough if this is how the mod is going to turn out however the backstory to why the Excelsior II has been choosen over the Galaxy in phase out seems a little weak from all points including how ship yards, tanks, fighter planes are all factored out today.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 6:28 pm

I thought the B was a Excelcior 1?!?  Ah well it doesn't really I still agree that it is too old to be in the game.  I never liked the design any way.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 6:31 pm

The Excelcior mk2 is a completely new a ship it is still being manufactured. The only thing it shares in common with the mk1 is the name and shape. The same goes for the the miranda mk2.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 7:22 pm

No its not. The excelsior mark II was the Enterprise B, The Lakota Class was an excelsior refit.

Check Memory Alpha or Wikipedia or any other number of sites if you don't believe me.

As it stands even the most heavily upgraded Excelsior is going to be a poor ship compared to the Galaxy class, it is an older space frame, it has more dated systems, those systems even if upgraded are no longer the ships standard systems so it is no longer working on its native operating systems either.

Sorry you can say what you want but that would be like saying a Tomcat  (F-14) if upgraded with new systems, weapons etc but same chasis could outpreform a Eurofighter or a F-22 Raptor....

It just isn't going to happen. As good a fighter as it was/is it just can't compete with a new generation and thus is being placed into mothball/phased out.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Just look at the model. No matter what the Excelsiors have been called... the buildable Version in FO is clearly a new variant just using the old name.

It serves the same purpose as the old Excelsior perhaps, but is based on modern technology obviously at least 1 or 2 decades newer than the Galaxy class.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 9:06 pm

Does no one understand what i am trying to say


The excelsior space frame... the main hull is hundreds of years old. The ship is OLDER than the Ambassador class.

Altering that space frame and upgrading it to the point where it is a new vessel would by hugely EXPENSIVE. It would be FAR cheaper and more efficient to use a Galaxy class or build a new ship.

This is because the Galaxy has a newer hull with better warp geometry and more modern equipment that will therefore be easier to upgrade with high tech or experimental equipment.


If this was not the case then all navies, air forces and armies would use equipment that had merely been updated from the 18th Century.

The reality is that eventually a hull frame WILL cease to be useful...

The reality in star trek is that considering the success of the Galaxy class, the Excelsior class hull form WILL be OBSOLETE before the Excelsior.


Finally, as i said if this is just because this is how you want the mod to take form that is fair enough, however one must stick to certain cannon conventions otherwise the mod can be called anything and isn't going to be regarded as very star trek.

One of those conventions is the Federation stops upgrading older space frames before younger one...

The Galaxy hull form is a younger more capable hull form than the Excelsior with far greater space for upgrade, far more damage potential and generally a Far better hull to make a modern capital cruiser ship conversion.

[Lt.Cdr.White]

posted on April 30th, 2009, 9:21 pm

Last edited by Lt.Cdr.White on April 30th, 2009, 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

From the looks of it, looking at nacelle placements, connection struts, saucer section design etc., the Excelsior-II in FO 3.0 seems to be closer related the the Sovereign than to the old Excelsior.

My impression is that it's not updated, but completely new design, mimicking the general configuration of the old Excelsior.

The Galaxy is a huge vessel originally designed as a multirole ship with large passenger capacity. You send a Galaxy to transport many people, or to accomodate science crew and family all on one ship capable of operating in deep space without any escort. Simultaneously, it was top notch technology at the time it was designed and thus the pride of Starfleet engineering. It was also showing how the Federation was meant to be peaceful and diplomatic.

The Excelsior-II in FO seems to have a different role. Lower crew capacity (fewer science crew, transport capacity and perhaps no families?), at the same time lower amounts of resources needed and looking at the overall style, designed in a time where war (against the Borg or even the Dominion) was much more likely then in the 2350s.

All in all the Excelsior-II seems to be mass producable just as the old Excelsior was. And sometimes you just don't need one strong ship like the Sovereign but a larger number able to be at more places at the same time. Imagine a war with two fronts because two threats attack at the same time.

I'm still trying to find a screenshot of the Excelsior-II in FO, but the saucer and nacelle struts and nacelle design seem to point to a base design from the 2370s and not from before the 2360s.


Edit: Found it.

Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Ambassador Class (all to the right)

and here:

Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Federation Fleet (upper middle area)

New nacelle struts and nacelle design, completely new secondary hull with flowing lines. Saucer circular, but of the same design lineage as the Sovereign one.

It is not just updated, it is completely new. Just as the Sovereign looks similar to the Constitution class, but is none.

Here the old Excelsior from FO for comparison:

Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Excelsior Class

posted on April 30th, 2009, 9:34 pm

Okay just played a game and i have to say that you are correct. The Excelsior MkII and Descent both seem heavily based on the Sovereigns layout. In that case we can assume that Starfleet has designed a completely new ship and because of its vaque resemblance to the Excelsior they dubed it the Excelsior Mark II.

As to the Galaxy being made for multi-role. The very size of it works in its favour. All that space for civilians could easily be changed to factor in shield, sensor and weapons upgrades (such as the Venture). To quote several modern day admirals. "Steel is cheap, Air is free." Though this might not apply to space in general it probably has relevance here!!


And yes i do understand the basis that excelsior's would be cheaper than Galaxies, however if they have built a new class it would seem they have gone for a more expensive option designed around a ship that can last as long and be as effective as the original Excelsior.

I also understand that sometimes you need "hulls in the water" (or space in this case) so thats a valid argument.

While i understand all of your points i think its a shame that made up ships like Excelsior Mark II, Remore, Avalon and Phalanx were used in the battleship, battlecruiser area.

Only 2 of them are cannon and both usually very rare. Considering there is a long list of very modern designs such as the Lunar, Titan and Excalibur class warships to call on one does wonder why they aren't there.

As regards Partial Cannon the Excalibur class is a beast of a ship and would easily be able to match the Descent or Avalon classes i'm sure.

Then there is the seen and designed Prometheus that would be a very interesting ship.... It would be cool to actually have a MVAM unit in an RTS!!

So i think that as i said in my first post.

Fleet ops is a very good mod, however i think its a shame that the balance of Known ship designs and made up designs is skewed so heavily that you only have 5 in the whole federation build list.

Sabre, Akira, Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign.


I guess i would have had warp in ships being experimental in nature like Descent etc and then more "on the board" but still not mass produced ones for regular warp in and then had the frigate factory produce what it does with the advanced one featuring the Excalibur, Prometheus, Sovereign, Defiant and Galaxy class.