Noxter an 8472 clone?

posted on January 13th, 2009, 7:35 pm

Serpicus, I can see your point - in Beta 2 the Noxter do play quite similar to how 8472 did in some respects, however Optec has said that the Noxter are being given a complete gameplay and visual overhaul, so there could be quite a difference between the new Noxter and 8472, we'll just have to wait and see

[Anonymous]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 7:53 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 13th, 2009, 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ive never known 8472 to be taboo round here, personally i have no issue with them but im not some hardcore trekkie.

i merely saying there is no need to go over board with it, the devs have said their reasons and they like their noxter race so leave them be with it, unless you wanna create and add them yourself which i wouldnt mind by the way as more races the better then go for it. But your asking them to dump their own race they have plenty of ideas planned for since beta 2 in favor of a race you prefer and to replan everythign for them... its just a bit cheeky...

. I see where you may have misunderstood me.
I was merely asking why the devs decided to include noxter. instead of 8472. I did not anywhere imply that they reject Noxter.

All i was stating was - when Noxter can be included with a new tree etc - why did we choose an alien race that is completely new over 8472. Particularly when the new race is (and im sure u see the similarities too) like an 8472 replica.

That is all i was saying. If they would be interested in including 8472 and of course the cardies (I know that they have until now said no) as playable at some point, we certainly have good ideas that our interested contributors can post here.

I know I have posted stuff for the cardies and 8472 (may not be good, but i am contributing). Ive seen other posters like Kl0k posting good stuff. The TOS thread for example, the crates thread, Dom's same race construction ship capture thread etc.

So we by no means have a dearth of good ideas. If the mods were to seriously consider 8472 and the cardies as playable races we would be able to take the game to the next level.

The noxter and the Iconians are good. And I did not mean they should be discarded or re-planned. But if we are going the extra mile for races that are not canon and (in the case of the noxter) replicas of a canon race, we could least consider the possibility of including canon races and discuss the possibilities.

That's all I was driving at. 

posted on January 13th, 2009, 7:57 pm

In the end we have a reskin in 8472 - not sure if everyone will agree but i see ur point.
and then we have noxter, which are "reskin of a reskin"?

And how long would like to play that game?
"The Noxter are just a reskin of 8472"
"8472 are just a reskin of the Zerg"
"The Zerg are just a reskin of the Tyranids"
"The Tyranids are just a reskin of SST's Bugs"

Let's not kid ourselves and pretend the "organic technology species 8472" is an original idea. But the Noxter are a whole deal farther removed from standard Trek fare, and thus already more original than 8472. Why try to balance and adapt 8472 to shoehorn them into playing like the Noxter when you could just...go with the Noxter.

posted on January 13th, 2009, 8:02 pm

And how long would like to play that game?
"The Noxter are just a reskin of 8472"
"8472 are just a reskin of the Zerg"
"The Zerg are just a reskin of the Tyranids"
"The Tyranids are just a reskin of SST's Bugs"

Let's not kid ourselves and pretend the "organic technology species 8472" is an original idea. But the Noxter are a whole deal farther removed from standard Trek fare, and thus already more original than 8472. Why try to balance and adapt 8472 to shoehorn them into playing like the Noxter when you could just...go with the Noxter.

fair enough. please read above. but make no mistake - the idea of Zerg in STU is strange enough as is.
so in regards to your post, ultimately noxter is the shoehorn into the Stat trek universe, ironically enough at the expense of the canonical 8472.

So from your argument, you kinda prove the case for 8472 over noxter. thanks
but that was not my initial intention. please read above

posted on January 13th, 2009, 8:43 pm

In some ways Noxter fits the FO STU fairly well given that this species cannot even use diplomacy as no one understands them. So far as I have seen every other StarTrek race has used diplomacy at some point... 

[Anonymous]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 8:46 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 13th, 2009, 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In some ways Noxter fits the FO STU fairly well given that this species cannot even use diplomacy as no one understands them. So far as I have seen every other StarTrek race has used diplomacy at some point... 

lol ok. and that means we should never discuss including 8472 under pain of insult or death. right? 
lol

But coming back to the point - what is that supposed to mean in regards to what is being discussed here? Does that aspect have any impact on gameplay as a distinction from 8472 - other than implying that a person choosing noxter should never be able to team up or have mixed tech ever. 

[DatonKallandor]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:04 pm

Last edited by DatonKallandor on January 13th, 2009, 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

so in regards to your post, ultimately noxter is the shoehorn into the Stat trek universe, ironically enough at the expense of the canonical 8472.

So from your argument, you kinda prove the case for 8472 over noxter. thanks

Not when the Noxter are supposed to play as they do. 8472 has not been portraied as primitive, swarmy animal-like in combat - if anything, they have been shown as the opposite. They have incredible powerful, single ships, with sophisticated technology. The Noxter are not supposed to play like that, which is the reason they're the Noxter, not 8472.

The only way to implement 8472 with that style of gameplay would be to completely redesign the entire species - if you end up doing that anyway, you might as well leave the 8472 canonical (and NPC, because their playstyle is already in the game) and make a new race (Noxter).

Incidentally, Species 8472 in it's canon form is an incredible waste. The Voyager writers had the chance to make a truly unique species, the first full organic spacefaring race in the Star Trek Universe - and what did they do? They made organic borg....from beyond the veil! (insert scary organ music)

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:06 pm

The Beta2 Noxter were not that different from 8472 gameplay-wise. The v3.X Noxter however will be completely different to any Fleet Operations or Armada race so far We already had some ideas for the Noxter for beta2, but we lacked the technology to implement then, we have more possibilities now

[Anonymous]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:15 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 13th, 2009, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Not when the Noxter are supposed to play as they do. 8472 has not been portraied as primitive, swarmy animal-like in combat - if anything, they have been shown as the opposite. They have incredible powerful, single ships, with sophisticated technology. The Noxter are not supposed to play like that, which is the reason they're the Noxter, not 8472.

The only way to implement 8472 with that style of gameplay would be to completely redesign the entire species - if you end up doing that anyway, you might as well leave the 8472 canonical (and NPC, because their playstyle is already in the game) and make a new race (Noxter).

. that's kinda what Im saying.
- the noxter even if playing differently are unique. They are intended to be different to 8472. which would account for the revamp that Optec mentioned. The fact that they are being revamped is an admittance by the admins themselves that the initial conceptualization was 8472ish.
- But at the end of it, even if revamped they will be a take on 8472. An attempt to bring an organic species into FO, like the Zerg, but relegating the job to an external invented species at the expense of the canonical one.
- so maybe we're talking at cross purposes with you focusing on why noxter should be included, but are not quite hitting at why 8472 should not be.
- as far as leaving them canonical and retain the battelship + planet killer, and not think of expanding any further., you have basically KILLED the DOMINION. Since the entire Dominion tech tree in FO with the exception of the Dreadought, the battelship and jemhadar scarab, is also a complete extrapolation.
In your opinion then the dominion should be an NP race and some other race called the "Imperium" that stems from a remote unexplored area of the "beta quadrant" should have been in its stead.

Again to repeat myself - I am not arguing against the noxter. I'm only curious about the rationale for being unwilling to consider 8472 by most of the posters here.
whether the developers decide to implement it or not is purely up to them, but why are we ourselves ruling it out on grounds that are more argumentative than any actual limitations (in gameplay or in conceptualization) without even being willing to consider how it could be?
I dont see why you're arguing so vehemently against a race that is quite popular in the ST Universe, that the mods could very well decide to introduce at a later date, and could prove to be interesting - both in how we design it and then play it.

[Anonymous]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:16 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 13th, 2009, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Beta2 Noxter were not that different from 8472 gameplay-wise. The v3.X Noxter however will be completely different to any Fleet Operations or Armada race so far We already had some ideas for the Noxter for beta2, but we lacked the technology to implement then, we have more possibilities now

Cool. thanks Optec.

Im sure you've read through this discussion and the one on nephalim's thread. Any input

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:30 pm

- so maybe we're talking at cross purposes with you focusing on why noxter should be included, but are not quite hitting at why 8472 should not be.
- as far as leaving them canonical and retain the battelship + planet killer, and not think of expanding any further., you have basically KILLED the DOMINION. Since the entire Dominion tech tree in FO with the exception of the Dreadought, the battelship and jemhadar scarab, is also a complete extrapolation.
In your opinion then the dominion should be an NP race and isome other race called the "Imperium" that stems from a remote unexplored area of the "beta quadrant" should have been in its stead.

It would have been cool to have more invented factions if they had unique playstyles at the expense of some of the tried-and-true factions. But it's a Star Trek game - you can't not have the Feds, Romulans and Klingons - they're ubiquitous. The Borg, thankfully, provided some uniqueness, and the Dominion, from what I remember reading, will also get some unique mechanics to differentiate it from the usual.

8472 just has no reason to be there because they'd just be fleshy borg. Small number of uberpowerful ships - been there, done that, called it Borg.
If you only have limited dev-time, I'd rather see it spent on a faction that'll be as different as possible from the current ones, not one that is largely the same.

[Anonymous]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 9:37 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 13th, 2009, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It would have been cool to have more invented factions if they had unique playstyles at the expense of some of the tried-and-true factions. But it's a Star Trek game - you can't not have the Feds, Romulans and Klingons - they're ubiquitous. The Borg, thankfully, provided some uniqueness, and the Dominion, from what I remember reading, will also get some unique mechanics to differentiate it from the usual.

8472 just has no reason to be there because they'd just be fleshy borg. Small number of uberpowerful ships - been there, done that, called it Borg.
If you only have limited dev-time, I'd rather see it spent on a faction that'll be as different as possible from the current ones, not one that is largely the same.

fair enough. that's more of a rationale that i was talking about. and that is your opinion which I respect. Do we take it then that everyone feels the same way? and that 8472 is not wanted by anyone as a playable race - now or ever in FO??

as regards uebermaechtig ships, we did discuss nanoprobe research as a balancer. we also mentioned progressive power- meaning scouts not as overpowering as battleships and certainly no ueber power for them - maybe an advantage in strength over the others of the same class, but nothing to challenge the fleets or stations even without nanoprobe research.
So yeah balancing them would be interesting.
Plsu the development of the tech tree in regards to research and fluidic warp ins would also be interesting. So if discussed and actually brainstormed I'm sure we would be able to come up with an interesting implementation which would be distinct from the borg. at least more distinct than the current Dominion is from roms/klings/feds.

But again, that is only possible if people are willing to discuss instead of shutting down with notions like "ueberpowerful" or "fleshy borg" before even getting off the ground.

oh well.

[DatonKallandor]

posted on January 13th, 2009, 10:05 pm

Last edited by DatonKallandor on January 13th, 2009, 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fair enough. that's more of a rationale that i was talking about. and that is your opinion which I respect. Do we take it then that everyone feels the same way? and that 8472 is not wanted by anyone as a playable race - now or ever in FO??

I'm not saying never have them. I'd be happy to see them - but not at the expense of more original stuff. I don't dislike Species 8472 - I think they're cool, but I also think the Noxter can be cooler. (although they could have been far cooler than Voyagers writers wrote them)

I also agree with you that the Dominion is plays pretty much the same as the Klingons/Romulans/Federation at the moment. But there's new race specific mechanics on the to-do list which would remedy that. (IIRC).

posted on January 13th, 2009, 10:14 pm

. I see where you may have misunderstood me.
I was merely asking why the devs decided to include noxter. instead of 8472. I did not anywhere imply that they reject Noxter.

Hehe I can see you have taken this issue rather seriously
If this is all you are wondering let me anwser you the best I can. First things first, consider the Tavara ship, almost everyone is wondering why the hell didnt they just include the Schimitar since its an already made ship and would fit the profile just as well (I dont want to start this discussion again BTW, Im just giving a similar example for better clearence).
If you want an anwser to both questions you must first consider how this mod was set in motion. The FO-team first made up a story of the Alpha quadrant some time after the Dominion wars, with a scenario that includes all the major powers of the Galaxy (and also some others). Basically they have the whole scenario in place and with the mod, they are just bringing that fantasy to life and that is exactly why we dont understand the inclusion/exclusion of some races and ships.
That is also why the Tavara is in instead of the Schimitar and why the Noxter are in and Species 8472 are not. Those "things" just dont belong into FO universe because they are not a part of it, as the team imagined it. So while we may discuss this issue over and over again, the result will be the same - Noxter are in and 8472 are not. Basically they are just creating a foundation for a single player campaign (I hope ).
With that said, I do agree with you that their playstyle does remind me of the Species 8472s' in stock A2, so I understand your question I hope I cleared it up for you
PS: I could be wrong about the whole thing though , but somehow I doubt it

[Anonymous]

posted on January 14th, 2009, 12:56 am

Last edited by Anonymous on January 14th, 2009, 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

omg lol.

sure .. after all the scim was reman not romulan, so after salvaging the prototype info from the database the roms developed the Tavs (scimitar norexan hybrids). Ill buy that 

But yeah ppl still want to see the scimitar and I think there are some of us that want to see 8472. Don't u? I was merely hoping to see if people would be in a position to conceptualize and develop ideas of how they would like to see 8472 - if ever:)

In any case, seeing that we're going all over the place, forget about it.. When people set boundaries for themselves before even letting the idea take off the ground, it kinda makes any discussion on advancing anything here a moot point.
Yeah. Let's be happy with what we get, and keep posting for "more cool looking stuff" like nacelle leaks and Crates that do 1000 things (again from another game lol). 

Fair enough.
Mods-  please close this thread.