Strategic Design

[Tyler]

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:06 pm

Last edited by Tyler on May 20th, 2011, 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Probably just an aesthetic thing, trying a look you don't see that often.

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:22 pm

Thats exactly my point Myles. A dogfight range + weak phasers would just be some kind of optical update, more or less pretty useless against any other bigger ship.

Another question: why is the deflector on top? Any particular reason for it?

thats not my point, we dont agree on that. i think the phaser should be on the model, but it shouldnt fire ever. a weapon that fires but does no damage is pointless and puts something on the screen that doesnt need to be there. and it shouldnt have a phaser that does any damage. it has the array for contingencies, but uses all the power for the big torpedo launchers.

i have no problem with deflector on top, i think its clever. its just the absence of the phaser that i think starfleet would never go for in a design. especially since the vulcans designed the ship. they never struck me as big huge torpedo launcher people.

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:28 pm

i just dont think starfleet would skip phasers.

Oberth-class vessels don't appear to have phasers, too. And some of these vessels served in Starfleet as well as in the Federation itself.

I really don't see a reason why Starfleet should only have vessels which are at least armed with a phaser, or torpedoes and phasers. Phasers are no must-have for vessels like the Teutoburg or the Olympic for that matter.

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:31 pm

The Oberth Class has at least 1 phaser, a ship of the class was seen firing one in First Contact. Never saw if civilian ones kept them, though it probably did for pirate defense.

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:38 pm

The Oberth Class has at least 1 phaser, a ship of the class was seen firing one in First Contact.

I forgot about this (because it's silly to have such a vessel in battle at all). However that's still not much of evidence for phasers on all SF-vessels. For me the Teutoburg is perfectly fine without Tesa- phaser-strips.

[Anonymous]

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:39 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 20th, 2011, 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oberth-class vessels don't appear to have phasers, too. And some of these vessels served in Starfleet as well as in the Federation itself.

actually they do have phasers as evidenced by them firing phasers in first contact:

I really don't see a reason why Starfleet should only have vessels which are at least armed with a phaser, or torpedoes and phasers. Phasers are no must-have for vessels like the Teutoburg or the Olympic for that matter.

the olympic has weapons of some description too, crusher said in dialogue they had some weapons, just that they were obviously not up to the task of stopping the klingon warships.

and looking at the ship here:
[img width=600]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081008025845/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e0/USS_Pasteur.jpg[/img]

i believe the 2 horizontal rings (one above the deflector and the other near the top pole) are phaser arrays.

i dont think starfleet would ever have a warp capable ship without at least 1 phaser array, just for getting rid of asteroids etc, maybe defending themselves against light piracy. torps can be less useful as they require more storage space and cant be used at some ranges. plus phasers have multiple technobabble settings and are useful in multiple situations.

---

EDIT:

damnit, ninjad by tyler with the exact same pic

because it's silly to have such a vessel in battle at all

well when the borg come-a-knockin' you put everything you have at hand out on the field. if that oberth didnt fight, it would have just been assimilated later anyway. or would have had to run away like complete sissy cowards.

posted on May 20th, 2011, 6:53 pm

the olympic has weapons of some description too, crusher said in dialogue they had some weapons, just that they were obviously not up to the task of stopping the klingon warships.

and looking at the ship here:
[img width=600]http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081008025845/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e0/USS_Pasteur.jpg[/img]

i believe the 2 horizontal rings (one above the deflector and the other near the top pole) are phaser arrays.

I personally doubt the Pasteur had phasers. The Pasteur took many shots from three vessels before the shields were down. Even though many folks said the klingon cruisers there appeared to be weaker armed, I tend to say three cruisers should have gotten through the Pasteur's shields with more ease. So to me the rings could also be part of the shield system.

Pasteur being armed with something we don't know is no evidence for having phasers.
Pasteur taking loads and loads of hits is also no evidence for extended shielding.

Conclusion: Those rings could be anything, even a railroad for trains. 

posted on May 20th, 2011, 7:08 pm

I personally doubt the Pasteur had phasers.

had to have some weapons, crusher explicitly stated they had weapons (that were no match for the klinks). so if not phasers what? i doubt its gonna be torps of any kind. so what else could they have?

The Pasteur took many shots from three vessels before the shields were down. Even though many folks said the klingon cruisers there appeared to be weaker armed, I tend to say three cruisers should have gotten through the Pasteur's shields with more ease. So to me the rings could also be part of the shield system.

how strong their shields are is not the point here. i think that the shields being tough matches the ship's role as a medical ship, it should be capable of taking hits to protect the patients.

Pasteur being armed with something we don't know is no evidence for having phasers.

then what else do you think they had? torps would be silly, way too offensive. starfleet doesnt really have many other weapon types. pulse phasers are silly here. that leaves a phaser of some kind.

Conclusion: Those rings could be anything, even a railroad for trains. 

including phasers phasers have to be somewhere, so the grey bars are as good a candidate as you'll find.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 1:41 am

i dont think starfleet would ever have a warp capable ship without at least 1 phaser array, just for getting rid of asteroids etc, maybe defending themselves against light piracy. torps can be less useful as they require more storage space and cant be used at some ranges. plus phasers have multiple technobabble settings and are useful in multiple situations.

Really good point.


And now let's google a bit for the Pasteur aka Olympic-Class:
Armaments: 4 phaser arrays, fore and aft torpedo launchers
Defences:        deflector shields
Olympic class - Memory Beta, non-canon Star Trek Wiki

Plus has phaser in STO, it fires phaser in the movie. What more do we need?
(Even if you guys gonna hate me for this: in STO it fires phasers out of the ring, at least what i've seen in a video)
On the other hand some sources only mention phasers for non combatant usage to keep the status as a medical ship, which the Teutoburg is definitely not.



So let's go back to Teutoburg again:
I would assume every starfleet vessel has phasers, and so should the Teutoburg. Doesn't have to be strong ones, little ones for melee (as mentioned: dogfight) range. So basically it would only be for optical and canon reasons. (more or less to defend against pirates, small vessels, or non combatant multi-purpose use)

posted on May 21st, 2011, 2:03 am

As the Teutoburg was created for a specific military purpose and is essentially one big weapon, why would it need - if it even could mount - a phaser array of any type? It's not going to be patrolling. It's not going to be without an escort. It's going to be lobbing torpedoes for war. This is the canon of Fleet Operations and does not have to obey any other fandom, nor canon, of which there is none - the Teutoburg and it's status are not in Star Trek prime and there is no precedent (no... even the Defiant is not like the Teutoburg).

Of course, in Star Trek prime, the Romulans aren't a force to be reckoned with, Janeway is an admiral, the Borg are neutered, and Defiants have plot armor 2 stories tall, except when the Enterprise-# is nearby. What were we discussing again? Don't fret the small stuff 

posted on May 21st, 2011, 3:40 am

i dont see the point in having nonfunctioning weapons it just clutters the screen. Idk if they should be on the model or not im good either way.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 4:12 am

And now let's google a bit for the Pasteur aka Olympic-Class:
Armaments: 4 phaser arrays, fore and aft torpedo launchers
Defences:          deflector shields
Olympic class - Memory Beta, non-canon Star Trek Wiki

Memory-Beta probably isn't your best bet for backing up a canon-vs-gameplay argument. If you look on Memory Alpha, the in-canon star trek wiki, it gives the Olympic class only "limited weaponry".

posted on May 21st, 2011, 10:04 am

memory beta is for non canon stuff. in canon we never saw the olympic fire phasers, only crusher said it had something, just nothing good enough for the job of fighting the klingons.

i dont see the point in having nonfunctioning weapons it just clutters the screen. Idk if they should be on the model or not im good either way.

agreed it should never ever fire them in fleetops. i just want a small array on the model.

As the Teutoburg was created for a specific military purpose and is essentially one big weapon, why would it need - if it even could mount - a phaser array of any type? It's not going to be patrolling. It's not going to be without an escort. It's going to be lobbing torpedoes for war. This is the canon of Fleet Operations and does not have to obey any other fandom, nor canon, of which there is none - the Teutoburg and it's status are not in Star Trek prime and there is no precedent (no... even the Defiant is not like the Teutoburg).

the teuto is still a starship and will eventually not be used in a war (probably running between a couple inner federation starbases). starfleet cant always guarantee it an escort, it doesnt have one when it warps in. what if some pirates decided to try steal its torps while it was on the way and warping in? if the pirates stayed in close or behind the tooty with a smaller ship they could avoid torps. then they can steal valuable federation torps. feds cant afford to lose any torps, all their ships need them

theres no artillery precedent in trek at all. the only precedent we have is "ships with a dedicated function" like the oberth being a science ship, and it had a phaser. and the olympic being a hospital ship, with "limited weaponry". even starfleet's single purpose ships get a phaser to stop pirates in shuttles from robbing them, or blasting some asteroids like in the old video game.

this is definitely "small stuff", it doesnt matter much, but there isnt anything big to talk about, so that only leaves the small

posted on May 21st, 2011, 11:19 am

Nope the Teutoburg is not used except in situations of conflict. There are only a hand full of these vessels, and they are docked at starbases. They don't have efficient cargo decks or civil facilities. Even if they would like to, they couldnt participate in trade or patroll missions without major reconfiguration.

The Teutoburg is a specialized weapon, developed at Vulcan for a very defined and single purpose - to avoid the terrible losses as seen in the Dominion War, when "average" starfleet ships try to brawl with a dedicated war machine. They strike from afar, they strike with escorts at hand, and they are at warp speed before the opponent reacts.
The Teutoburg is not the new generation of Starfleet warships - they dont build warships. Its a highly specialized tool, not a Starfleet Neghvar.

posted on May 21st, 2011, 11:27 am

so what if someone attacks them while they are at warp they dont have any rear torps to defend themselves. and they warpin without escort.

maybe if a few ships escorted the teuto in as it warps in, then the escort leaves and its up to the player to continue to escort the ship?