Online Etiquette - Let's Be Clear.
posted on February 16th, 2010, 5:48 am
So to clarify again ...
Spamming is not against the rules.
There are no "rules" outside of not abusing actual BUGS/EXPLOITS.
"Spamming" is making ONLY one of these ship classes that are listed in the original post. These are the ships that right now are perhaps unbalanced and do too well against too many things. If you want to spam them, that's fine, but don't be surprised if it makes people upset.
Today there was a little snafu online amongst a number of people regarding what "SPAM" actually is. Making a few of these units listed above is not spam. K'vorts are still a necessary part of a Klingon Lineup. Intrepids, Excelsior II, and Norways are excellent vessels for the Federation to field, while V-13's are really the Bread and Butter of Dominion late game. Screw Breen Cruisers
. These ships need to be built because they are an excellent part of that faction's forces. However ... skipping all other vessels and building NOTHING but one of those vessels is SPAM. It is not an exploit but it is a conscious choice to build a unit that we all know needs a fix.
Sensor Blackout and Griffin's Sensor Jammer were abilities that we knew needed a fix but were not "Bugs". We all agreed that they were not fair and either did not use them or used them in smaller quantities until they were adjusted. Spamming these units is a harder thing regulate as it's much more of a gray area when it comes to spam. But we're not stupid. We know when we're spamming ....
Spamming is not against the rules.
There are no "rules" outside of not abusing actual BUGS/EXPLOITS.
"Spamming" is making ONLY one of these ship classes that are listed in the original post. These are the ships that right now are perhaps unbalanced and do too well against too many things. If you want to spam them, that's fine, but don't be surprised if it makes people upset.
Today there was a little snafu online amongst a number of people regarding what "SPAM" actually is. Making a few of these units listed above is not spam. K'vorts are still a necessary part of a Klingon Lineup. Intrepids, Excelsior II, and Norways are excellent vessels for the Federation to field, while V-13's are really the Bread and Butter of Dominion late game. Screw Breen Cruisers
. These ships need to be built because they are an excellent part of that faction's forces. However ... skipping all other vessels and building NOTHING but one of those vessels is SPAM. It is not an exploit but it is a conscious choice to build a unit that we all know needs a fix.Sensor Blackout and Griffin's Sensor Jammer were abilities that we knew needed a fix but were not "Bugs". We all agreed that they were not fair and either did not use them or used them in smaller quantities until they were adjusted. Spamming these units is a harder thing regulate as it's much more of a gray area when it comes to spam. But we're not stupid. We know when we're spamming ....
posted on February 16th, 2010, 11:45 pm
Aye, and to add to that, spamming isn't normally a problem - unless there is no counter. You can spam 19279873 Sabers, but it is easy to stop it. Since there aren't good counters to these listed spammed units (I.E. a balanced fleet actually fails hard against them), it is a sign of trouble 
posted on February 17th, 2010, 2:01 am
posted on February 17th, 2010, 2:13 am
posted on February 17th, 2010, 2:55 am
but I love my Ecel II's
Please don't make me give them up!! jkjk
I usually build a mass of norways, canaverals, sabers(if i have to) then mostly Akiras and excels, + warpin
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:14 am
Well that's what most people do when they play Mayson 
.
They rely almost exclusively on Norways (with Plasma Coil) and Warp-ins until they can field an Eraudi Yard and start pumping out Excell II's. They ignore the Chassis tree entirely until they are somehow stopped from winning and cannot defeat their opponents without Sovereigns or some such thing.
Again there will be a great replay put up soon by Yandonman of a 1 v 1 between Dominus and myself where we pit Risner against Mayson to see if there's any way she can beat him. It was ... painful to watch and oodles of fun to watch Mayson steamroll Risner. I was even slow getting the Excel II's out and yet it didn't matter.
.They rely almost exclusively on Norways (with Plasma Coil) and Warp-ins until they can field an Eraudi Yard and start pumping out Excell II's. They ignore the Chassis tree entirely until they are somehow stopped from winning and cannot defeat their opponents without Sovereigns or some such thing.
Again there will be a great replay put up soon by Yandonman of a 1 v 1 between Dominus and myself where we pit Risner against Mayson to see if there's any way she can beat him. It was ... painful to watch and oodles of fun to watch Mayson steamroll Risner. I was even slow getting the Excel II's out and yet it didn't matter.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:18 am
Last edited by tom on February 17th, 2010, 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
I would like to see real counters not this wimpy 40% miss or 60% something damage stuff. What i mean by this? read on
in my mind norexan is a dedicated anti-destroyer ship. i dont mind taking 3 k'vorts or 5 b'rels with 1 of them because it can kick the crap out of them without breaking a sweat. all they can do is run.
on the other hand a negh'var beats 2 norexans hands down. sus'a vs norexan is a fair fight, cost-wise so like 3-4 vs 1, but sus'a kicks d'deridex's/sov's/v-15's/... ass and any other battleship that is not anti-destroyer (and there are not many).
i can drag my babbling on but my point should be clear. whats the point of spaming breen cruisers if a monsoon/kvort/shrike can beat breen cruiser 1v1 without even losing shields?
EDIT: just spot this
this might sound like something opposite to what i said above but imho:
no, breen cruiser spam should still beat a balanced fleet. it should fail hard against a 'breen cruiser counter' spam and so making spaming useless. balanced fleets should not come from some theoretical idea that its good to build them, they should be valid because if u spam A i can just spam my counter B and u fail, so u start to build something to counter B (be it C) so i build D then u build E, i build F. toss a few support ships and i have B D F (H J as support ships) and u have A C E (G I as support). wow, would u look at that, we both have balanced fleets and it comes down to execution of some strats, scouting, sneaky attacks, harassment, ... all things i like about rts games, not just spamming
in my mind norexan is a dedicated anti-destroyer ship. i dont mind taking 3 k'vorts or 5 b'rels with 1 of them because it can kick the crap out of them without breaking a sweat. all they can do is run.
on the other hand a negh'var beats 2 norexans hands down. sus'a vs norexan is a fair fight, cost-wise so like 3-4 vs 1, but sus'a kicks d'deridex's/sov's/v-15's/... ass and any other battleship that is not anti-destroyer (and there are not many).
i can drag my babbling on but my point should be clear. whats the point of spaming breen cruisers if a monsoon/kvort/shrike can beat breen cruiser 1v1 without even losing shields?
EDIT: just spot this
Boggz wrote:In an ideal world, the 10-16 Breen Cruisers should fail against your balanced fleet.
this might sound like something opposite to what i said above but imho:
no, breen cruiser spam should still beat a balanced fleet. it should fail hard against a 'breen cruiser counter' spam and so making spaming useless. balanced fleets should not come from some theoretical idea that its good to build them, they should be valid because if u spam A i can just spam my counter B and u fail, so u start to build something to counter B (be it C) so i build D then u build E, i build F. toss a few support ships and i have B D F (H J as support ships) and u have A C E (G I as support). wow, would u look at that, we both have balanced fleets and it comes down to execution of some strats, scouting, sneaky attacks, harassment, ... all things i like about rts games, not just spamming
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:25 am
Boggz wrote:Well that's what most people do when they play Mayson
They rely almost exclusively on Norways (with Plasma Coil) and Warp-ins until they can field an Eraudi Yard and start pumping out Excell II's. They ignore the Chassis tree entirely until they are somehow stopped from winning and cannot defeat their opponents without Sovereigns or some such thing.
On the head my friend
tom wrote:I would like to see real counters not this wimpy 40% miss or 60% something damage stuff. What i mean by this? read on
in my mind norexan is a dedicated anti-destroyer ship. i dont mind taking 3 k'vorts or 5 b'rels with 1 of them because it can kick the crap out of them without breaking a sweat. all they can do is run.
on the other hand a negh'var beats 2 norexans hands down. sus'a vs norexan is a fair fight, cost-wise so like 3-4 vs 1, but sus'a kicks d'deridex's/sov's/v-15's/... ass and any other battleship that is not anti-destroyer (and there are not many).
i can drag my babbling on but my point should be clear. whats the point of spaming breen cruisers if a monsoon/kvort/shrike can beat breen cruiser 1v1 without even losing shields?
Might be a bit off topic, but I still agree
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:41 am
tom wrote:I would like to see real counters not this wimpy 40% miss or 60% something damage stuff. What i mean by this? read on
I'm confused (even after reading the rest
). Do you want harder or softer counters?in my mind norexan is a dedicated anti-destroyer ship. i dont mind taking 3 k'vorts or 5 b'rels with 1 of them because it can kick the crap out of them without breaking a sweat. all they can do is run.
Brother-man your Norexan is in for a shock. The Kvort takes a 40% damage reduc for pulses v. battleship, but gets a 40% increase against a medium range target and even MORE damage because the Norexan has Tactical Weapon Arrays and takes more damage from short range vessels. The Norexan's own pulses do 20% less to the K'vort
. Your Norexan is in deep trouble if it runs across 3 K'vorts, if you ask me .B'rels ... well I've sadly thrown a few B'rels at a Norexan and even though they do normal damage because the extra damage vs. TWA cancels out the pulse reduction, the B'rels simply get shredded anyway.
on the other hand a negh'var beats 2 norexans hands down.
Yep. Massively powerful battleship with short range vs. a ship with TWA = dunzo.
.sus'a vs norexan is a fair fight, cost-wise so like 3-4 vs 1, but sus'a kicks d'deridex's/sov's/v-15's/... ass and any other battleship that is not anti-destroyer (and there are not many).
Yeah Norexan vs. a few Su'sa would be an interesting fight. The Norexan is still going to take 40% extra damage because the Su'sa are short ranged, then the extra damage from Last-Ditch ... but the Norexan's own Weapons will level the Su'sa as well
.i can drag my babbling on but my point should be clear. whats the point of spaming breen cruisers if a monsoon/kvort/shrike can beat breen cruiser 1v1 without even losing shields?
But they can't ... that's the issue. Breen Cruisers have no weakness. Monsoons are still great (perfect in my opinion) but Intrepids are all around better for almost the same cost. Shrikes are a HUGE waste of money right now. K'vorts will do well against Breen but really ... it's just spamming one OP ship against another. Overall if the Breen have any engine upgrades then the Kvort's are toast.
I think your issue with the Norexan could be that the Norexan's passive, TWA (tactical Weapons Arrays) is made to fight long ranged destroyers and cruisers, not short range ANYTHING. Pitting it against Kvorts is just asking your expensive little Norexan to get manhandled appallingly. In fact Romulans in general get shafted against a K'vort spam because soooo many of their ships are medium ranged. D'deridex, Norexans, Generix (even the Frigates) all get tossed by K'vorts because of their passive against medium range ships.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:45 am
Last edited by tom on February 17th, 2010, 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
its 4am here so it might be me but could u read my post again. stop at:
and read that part at least twice
EDIT: in my mind = inside my brain
tom wrote:in my mind
and read that part at least twice
EDIT: in my mind = inside my brain
posted on February 17th, 2010, 3:53 am
Last edited by Anonymous on February 17th, 2010, 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
I agree with you on that tom, but the breen cruiser is a great example of how the passives aren't anywhere balanced yet. It does good, equal damage to all vessels, and then does VERY good damage to medium vessels. So it does well against ABCDE and F
It can still kite, especially if you upgrade the breen engine upgrades, and there's really not much that can counter it. Basically anything with tactical weapons should be the counter for it, so brels, monsoons, s-2 and who knows with the romulans, which I'll get to later. But all you have to do to counter those vessels are build some s-2s for alpha ketracel white to give them the boost to blow up those ships. Problem solved.
The real kicker is that the romulan spectre refit, which used to be the perfect counter against the breen cruiser, is now no longer a counter. It recieves 25% less damage from torpedoes, but it's a medium ranged vessel, so it recieves extra damage. So now the counter is countered. Same with the frigate refit against K'vorts. I think it's intended as a funny joke.
I know that what you were getting at was there shouldn't be some theoretical "balanced" fleet, like how the 3.0.7 guides were written. That's why things are moving toward more of a unit description, so that you know what the counters are. It's just that many of these passives are in the wrong place, like how boggz mentions the Norexan should be (and used to be) good against destroyers, but its passive makes it anything but. I know you know this, but I'm just saying to say it.
edit: Of course the monsoon doesn't have tac weapons, but the other passive that's good against long range, the super duper shields or whatever it's called.
It can still kite, especially if you upgrade the breen engine upgrades, and there's really not much that can counter it. Basically anything with tactical weapons should be the counter for it, so brels, monsoons, s-2 and who knows with the romulans, which I'll get to later. But all you have to do to counter those vessels are build some s-2s for alpha ketracel white to give them the boost to blow up those ships. Problem solved.
The real kicker is that the romulan spectre refit, which used to be the perfect counter against the breen cruiser, is now no longer a counter. It recieves 25% less damage from torpedoes, but it's a medium ranged vessel, so it recieves extra damage. So now the counter is countered. Same with the frigate refit against K'vorts. I think it's intended as a funny joke.
I know that what you were getting at was there shouldn't be some theoretical "balanced" fleet, like how the 3.0.7 guides were written. That's why things are moving toward more of a unit description, so that you know what the counters are. It's just that many of these passives are in the wrong place, like how boggz mentions the Norexan should be (and used to be) good against destroyers, but its passive makes it anything but. I know you know this, but I'm just saying to say it.
edit: Of course the monsoon doesn't have tac weapons, but the other passive that's good against long range, the super duper shields or whatever it's called.
posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:06 am
Ah well I guess Tom I didn't take the single part of that as seriously as all that rest . I see how that should be what happens with the Norexan in your mind. I think it should be that way too! Seems like mostly earlier vessels are short ranged and the Norexan has some contradictory abilities. I always felt it was made to wreck havoc on the Excelsior I and II and things like the Sang . Really does suck to watch your precious Norexan get chowwed on by a few Kvorts.
Regarding the Breen, I can see now that you are advocating Hard Counters. I don't like hard counters at all. Starcraft and Warcraft are perfect examples of RTS games with hard counters. Basically you just spam one or two types of units in those games and hope your opponent built the thing that you counter. If you are smart you scout them and build whatever you need to counter them. If you're dumb, you lose. It's very black and white (having played lots of both online over the years) and it's not very complicated or really that much fun.
Hard counters are 40% things. Soft Counters are 10-25% things. Ships should never make up 100% of a fleet in this game if you ask me. At the very least they should make up most of the fleet with support ships. An unsupported 100% spam fleet deserves to DIE in my opinion!
. I see how that should be what happens with the Norexan in your mind. I think it should be that way too! Seems like mostly earlier vessels are short ranged and the Norexan has some contradictory abilities. I always felt it was made to wreck havoc on the Excelsior I and II and things like the Sang . Really does suck to watch your precious Norexan get chowwed on by a few Kvorts.Regarding the Breen, I can see now that you are advocating Hard Counters. I don't like hard counters at all. Starcraft and Warcraft are perfect examples of RTS games with hard counters. Basically you just spam one or two types of units in those games and hope your opponent built the thing that you counter. If you are smart you scout them and build whatever you need to counter them. If you're dumb, you lose. It's very black and white (having played lots of both online over the years
) and it's not very complicated or really that much fun.Hard counters are 40% things. Soft Counters are 10-25% things. Ships should never make up 100% of a fleet in this game if you ask me. At the very least they should make up most of the fleet with support ships. An unsupported 100% spam fleet deserves to DIE in my opinion!
posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:08 am
Last edited by tom on February 17th, 2010, 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
that's gr8 guys 
if i wasnt clear enough i'm talking about Imaginarium of Doctor tom and u are talking about FO. inside my scull breen cruiser can't do shi* to b'rel because b'rel is running circles around it while the cruiser is trying to turn and target the little mosquito. i am aware that things might be a little different out there, but what would i care 
when i can design it all in my head. whats more i can implement some of it (in case u r wondering what im doing awake at 4 am). tommy sleepy now, good night
EDIT: ninja'd
if i wasnt clear enough i'm talking about Imaginarium of Doctor tom and u are talking about FO. inside my scull breen cruiser can't do shi* to b'rel because b'rel is running circles around it while the cruiser is trying to turn and target the little mosquito. i am aware that things might be a little different out there, but what would i care when i can design it all in my head. whats more i can implement some of it (in case u r wondering what im doing awake at 4 am). tommy sleepy now, good nightEDIT: ninja'd
posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:11 am
HAHAH!
It's only 8pm here, Tom. Right now I'm a forum Samurai and I will chop up your tiny Dr. Tom Brain, wrap it in seaweed, and sell it as sushi for $20 a plate (that's about 14 Euro's for all you EU kids).
It's only 8pm here, Tom. Right now I'm a forum Samurai and I will chop up your tiny Dr. Tom Brain, wrap it in seaweed, and sell it as sushi for $20 a plate (that's about 14 Euro's for all you EU kids)
.posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:14 am
I love the "beat tom down while he's dog tired" game! 
It's my favorite past time!
It's my favorite past time! Who is online
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