Online Etiquette - Let's Be Clear.

posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:20 am

Starcraft and Warcraft are perfect examples of RTS games with hard counters.  Basically you just spam one or two types of units in those games and hope your opponent built the thing that you counter.  If you are smart you scout them and build whatever you need to counter them.  If you're dumb, you lose.  It's very black and white (having played lots of both online over the years ) and it's not very complicated or really that much fun.

sc and wc are perfect examples of how low-med level play can be like this because they require so much micro but i think i'm the only one here who likes sc. anyway lets not make this sc vs all argument. i had like 100 of them here already. ask DN or search the forums.

if u want to see hard counters done right try company of heroes (i mean vanilla coh, ami vs wehrmacht) and tell me its not fun

posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:23 am

Haha I'm afraid I can't try all those games just to prove a point .

  I am just not a fan of hard counters.  I find that once you've been hard countered there is almost no way you can recuperate from it.  Skill has less to do with it than picking the right counter from the beginning.  I'd rather have a game where a unit used properly against another that is stronger than it would result in victory.  More skill and tactics are involved!

  I played oodles of RTS like AoE and WC/SC when I was growing up and it was more fun because it was more about WINNING than doing well.

posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:34 am

u dont have to here u go:

Viddler.com -
    1558 - Uploaded by GameReplays
Viddler.com -
    1550 - Uploaded by GameReplays
Viddler.com -
    1517 - Uploaded by GameReplays

basic ideas:

• inf does no damage to tanks
• at guns have a lot more range then tanks
• at guns do no damage to inf (except some lucky hits)
• mg pin down inf but have narrow arc of fire

see for yourself how nicely 'hard counter' ideas like this can develop into a game

posted on February 17th, 2010, 4:47 am

AoE does not have hard counters lol well its suppose to but trust me when i say that massed British long-bowmen is a counter for everything.

posted on February 17th, 2010, 5:39 am

AoE does not have hard counters lol well its suppose to but trust me when i say that massed British long-bowmen is a counter for everything.

I disagree .  Seige Onagers ftw every time.

posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:38 am

not if i have 200 and am paying attention I will show you how to "kit"

posted on February 17th, 2010, 6:40 am

Hahaha well I haven't played AoE online since 2003-4 to be honest, but as I recall you HAD to ignore 90% of the units in the game in favor of AOE (no pun intended) weapons like Seige Onagers and Cavalry.  Cavalry because they could close the distance with the Catapults real fast and make them fire on themselves if they wanted to hurt anyone.

  The British Longbowmen were good .. no doubt, but you had to play British and the Brits had trash for seige engines.

posted on February 17th, 2010, 1:01 pm

Sieging wasn't what the Brits were known for anyways
What I like the most about AoE is the historical aspect. Something good delivered by Microsoft

posted on February 17th, 2010, 2:09 pm

I can pretty much handle a spam of anything outside the large yard (except artilleries, those hurt). I personally don't really care about spamming. After all, I ironically find spamming those listed vessels rather pointless. Instead I spam these.

- Saber
- Akira
- Mir II
- Sovereign
- Bug
- Bomber
- Breen Cruiser
- Breen Battleship
- Shrike
- Griffin
- Norexan
- D'Deridex
- Sang
- LuSpet
- Negh'Var

posted on February 17th, 2010, 2:37 pm

follow the flow of the thread we are talking about spamming AOE units now. o btw mass siege rams work well too. Especially if they are filled with woad raiders or champions. Anyway me and a friend of mine still play it or me and my dad, still fun.

posted on February 18th, 2010, 7:57 pm

Boggz: (Dominos Noctis (Risner) vs Boggz (Mayson))
You wrote me in game, that yandonman recorded, when I produced 6 excelsiors that I'm a  spammer, yet you do the same here whit norways…

So how is it now ? I don't want to start a fight, I'm just asking … rather it's my own business whit what ships I start my build order on larger maps...


I aknowleged the flaws of these ships after I read the rules and fallowed them, but what are the game rules now ? The Etiquette?

Because you did not specify a clear etiquette, here is a realistic idea ... If the majority accepts it, then this is the way we shall play ... And later, if some ships will have similar problems, we will add them to the list, if it is to strong ...

These are our rules:
So that we do not force a certain tactic on a player to fallow, but to offer to start the game whit equal chances, I'll write a little presentation of our game rules:
everyone knows that in the beginning using warp-in is as if you where spamming, so that is why we agreed to use the first 2 warp-ins as defensive forces ... Which is realistic on large maps as it is on smaller ones ... Later I hope the developers will solve this problem as it adds a to great advantage to the federation.

But what is SPAM ?
The continuous building of the same type of ship, but it its not irrelevant if it's 5 or 25, and in which stage of the game people do this and which ship type they choose to produce.

Now comes the not balanced ships rules ( let us be clear what is the limit that makes it count as spam ): spam is in the first 10 minutes of the game whit the already mentioned ships (Max 5+ ship), this we thank Boggz for ( in this time frame if you are building for example whit klingons the B'rells 3-3-3,4-4 then you build other structures this time as almost up, so comes the next rule of 10+ ships in the fallowing 10 mins, but here most players already produce 3 types of ships, after this 20 minutes gameplay 20+ ships count as spam, which in our opinion is realistic. If the game goes on you can make a fleet of different ship types each 5+ ships, which is more effective like making only the same type of ship one after the other, of course if you use proper tactics and don't charge in headstrong.

These rules are easy to fallow, without the need of constant thinking about it, if one plays normally and does not spam.

The list is:
K'vort
Norway
Intrepid
Excelsior II
V-13
Breen Cruisers

But these are our rules, everyone plays as they please. The best in this case is if you build mixed fleets, which is only possible in the later stages of the game.
So if you accept these rules, and you feel like you can play not breaking them, then join a hosted game and write I accept, or join my host knowing these rules.

To add further rules is not a good idea in my opinion, we would get to deep in the games etiquette.
This list of ships is valid until the new patch is out.
Thank you Boggz for the list.

posted on February 18th, 2010, 8:05 pm

Boggz: (Dominos Noctis (Risner) vs Boggz (Mayson))
You wrote me in game, that yandonman recorded, when I produced 6 excelsiors that I'm a  spammer, yet you do the same here whit norways…

  Of course I did.  The point was to show what's POSSIBLE right now so that it can be fixed.

  Thus we both spammed our best and most spammable ships.  He spammed Intrepids, I spammed Norways/Excel II's/Warp-ins.


  The game you're refering to was the same way.  You even ignored Norways and went STRAIGHT to Excel II's, building nothing but those and Warp-ins against myself and a very new player.  You and Star are good.  I considered your 6 E-2's spam because you went straight to them and had no intention of building anything else soon.  I feel you did this because you knew we were being recorded and wanted people to see you win.

  You HATE on people for spamming in other games, so to see you do this against myself and a new player was frustrating.  Turning that back on me and saying I was spamming because I made 8 B'rels ... well that's just silly.

posted on February 18th, 2010, 8:20 pm

But what is SPAM ?
The continuous building of the same type of ship, but it its not irrelevant if it's 5 or 25, and in which stage of the game people do this and which ship type they choose to produce.

Careful.  Spamming Akiras late game for Feds is normal because it's the best ship the Antares yard can make.  But Akiras are almost perfectly balanced and don't represent the same kind of ship that E-2's do.  Likewise: spam all the Canaverals you want - they're gonna get crushed.  But spamming all the K'vorts you can is not cool because they don't have a weakness.

Now comes the not balanced ships rules ( let us be clear what is the limit that makes it count as spam ): spam is in the first 10 minutes of the game whit the already mentioned ships (Max 5+ ship), this we thank Boggz for ( in this time frame if you are building for example whit klingons the B'rells 3-3-3,4-4 then you build other structures this time as almost up, so comes the next rule of 10+ ships in the fallowing 10 mins, but here most players already produce 3 types of ships, after this 20 minutes gameplay 20+ ships count as spam, which in our opinion is realistic. If the game goes on you can make a fleet of different ship types each 5+ ships, which is more effective like making only the same type of ship one after the other, of course if you use proper tactics and don't charge in headstrong.

You can't put a "cap" on these ships or a time limit or somethign like that ... it just won't work and it's not the main issue.

But these are our rules, everyone plays as they please. The best in this case is if you build mixed fleets, which is only possible in the later stages of the game.
So if you accept these rules, and you feel like you can play not breaking them, then join a hosted game and write I accept, or join my host knowing these rules.

Keep in mind that at the beginning of this thread (yes, there WAS a beginning) I said specifically that THERE ARE NO RULES.  Only some things we can all agree on and that would be trying no to spam.

posted on February 18th, 2010, 8:47 pm

Boggz:

You can play bye these rules if a player does not spam and playes normally ... you don't need to watch the time this way

posted on February 18th, 2010, 8:49 pm

I guess I just think that's so subjective.

  I see lots of arguments like this:  "Hey!  You got 6 Kvort's out in the first 5 minutes and you're only supposed to have 5!"

"Well I had the 6th in line so it could be finished by 5 minutes."

"That's not fair!  You know the rules!"

"Well you've got your Intrepids!"

"That's because Risner Sabers suck!"

"Well then blahalhsafsjkfahsfjasblahablahblahablah".

  I see lots of little opportunities for "what is spamming" to come up after we've spent an entire thread discussing spamming.



Don't make rules.  Just don't spam .