List of awesome youtube replays
posted on October 29th, 2009, 4:09 pm
Last edited by yandonman on October 30th, 2009, 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
posted on October 29th, 2009, 6:29 pm
Well, I wouldn't say that everything in the guide is considered an exploit. 
You can easily win without ramming, and there's more to the C-11 than cascade feedback.
The most important thing to remember about the Dominion is building up a strong economy. That also includes building Ketracel Synthesizers. There was only about 1 built much later in the game, so I'm sure there was a lot of supply purchasing going on. After the first 1 or 2 purchases, it really hampers the dominion's income to keep buying them. So building those early on would have helped.
The other thing the Dominion needs is heavy ship production, which means 2 shipyards. Building turrets instead helped for a while, until the fed player attacked where all of the turrets weren't. But to do two shipyards, you really have to make bugs for a while, since they're cheap enough. Goo wasn't doing so bad with the bombers, but what killed him are the canaverals. I have no problem ramming them, because one overpowered ability deserves another.
Breen cruisers would probably have been better, because of their 360 degree arc, and they average the same amount of damage to all vessels.
The nice thing about such a small map like that is you can pretty much attack and retreat back to your base in time if the enemy retaliated. The bombers could have gone down the right side, attacked stations at Fed's expansion, and fired tetrion photon torpedoes. (If the technology lab had been built) Those bombers do extremely well against turrets and mining stations. Other races don't really have access to such a specialized ship that does so well against buildings. The feds have to get a lucky steamrunner, klingons and romulan artillary is expensive because of their 360 degree firing arcs. Also, having the technology lab would have allowed for Alpha Ketracel white, which would have increased firing rate and would have counteracted sensor blackout a little.
In short, using turrets and bombers wasn't really a bad thing on this map (it doesn't hurt that right now almost all the warp in ships get hit by torpedoes 100% of the time
), but getting the economy built in the right order while maintaining a strong fleet is paramount. How to go about that is in the guide. 
Probably the only thing for Boggz is you probably don't need four (four!
) shipyards on such a small map.
You can easily win without ramming, and there's more to the C-11 than cascade feedback. The most important thing to remember about the Dominion is building up a strong economy. That also includes building Ketracel Synthesizers. There was only about 1 built much later in the game, so I'm sure there was a lot of supply purchasing going on. After the first 1 or 2 purchases, it really hampers the dominion's income to keep buying them. So building those early on would have helped.
The other thing the Dominion needs is heavy ship production, which means 2 shipyards. Building turrets instead helped for a while, until the fed player attacked where all of the turrets weren't. But to do two shipyards, you really have to make bugs for a while, since they're cheap enough. Goo wasn't doing so bad with the bombers, but what killed him are the canaverals. I have no problem ramming them, because one overpowered ability deserves another.
Breen cruisers would probably have been better, because of their 360 degree arc, and they average the same amount of damage to all vessels.The nice thing about such a small map like that is you can pretty much attack and retreat back to your base in time if the enemy retaliated. The bombers could have gone down the right side, attacked stations at Fed's expansion, and fired tetrion photon torpedoes. (If the technology lab had been built) Those bombers do extremely well against turrets and mining stations. Other races don't really have access to such a specialized ship that does so well against buildings. The feds have to get a lucky steamrunner, klingons and romulan artillary is expensive because of their 360 degree firing arcs. Also, having the technology lab would have allowed for Alpha Ketracel white, which would have increased firing rate and would have counteracted sensor blackout a little.
In short, using turrets and bombers wasn't really a bad thing on this map (it doesn't hurt that right now almost all the warp in ships get hit by torpedoes 100% of the time
), but getting the economy built in the right order while maintaining a strong fleet is paramount. How to go about that is in the guide. Probably the only thing for Boggz is you probably don't need four (four!
) shipyards on such a small map.
posted on October 29th, 2009, 7:50 pm
Mal wrote:
Probably the only thing for Boggz is you probably don't need four (four!
Why not? I had the resources and the initiative
posted on October 29th, 2009, 9:38 pm
Well hey, you won! So I suppose it doesn't matter I guess what I'm wondering is were you able to build ships from all 4 yards? You probably could if you were just spamming destroyers. But I find that once I've built the Euradi Yard and start making E-IIs I can only build from 1 anteres yard (usually akiras or norways or canaverals, depending on what I need) But like you said, why not? 
Actually, after looking at it again, it looks like you were spamming monsoons, so you would have been able to produce from all 3 anteres yards, I think. I couldn't exactly see if yards were producing ships or not.
The end of the game came at 5:45 of 3/4 when sensor blackout happened more frequently. I'm still surprised that there will only be a reduction on how many vessels get hit and not on its duration. That's almost half a minute of the other guy sitting there looking retarded becuase his ships can't fire. It can be used again quickly on any vessels that got missed, and multiple canaverals will mean that even with a ship cap most or all ships will still be affected by it. I would really like to see its duration cut down to about 10 seconds. It would still be very powerful, but not game ending. Ok, I'm off my soapbox.
I guess what I'm wondering is were you able to build ships from all 4 yards? You probably could if you were just spamming destroyers. But I find that once I've built the Euradi Yard and start making E-IIs I can only build from 1 anteres yard (usually akiras or norways or canaverals, depending on what I need) But like you said, why not? Actually, after looking at it again, it looks like you were spamming monsoons, so you would have been able to produce from all 3 anteres yards, I think. I couldn't exactly see if yards were producing ships or not.The end of the game came at 5:45 of 3/4 when sensor blackout happened more frequently. I'm still surprised that there will only be a reduction on how many vessels get hit and not on its duration. That's almost half a minute of the other guy sitting there looking retarded becuase his ships can't fire. It can be used again quickly on any vessels that got missed, and multiple canaverals will mean that even with a ship cap most or all ships will still be affected by it. I would really like to see its duration cut down to about 10 seconds. It would still be very powerful, but not game ending. Ok, I'm off my soapbox.
posted on October 29th, 2009, 9:46 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on October 29th, 2009, 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yandonman wrote:@1337_64M3R: http://www.fraps.com/ $37
...
Open question on this game was what would be a good Dom strat against Fed... everything in the guide for early/mid Dom vs Fed is considered exploits (ramming, cascade feedback).
In other: Who would *you* like to see recorded?
I don't think that the strategies in the guide rely too heavily on ramming or the C-11. Those are only two basic strategies that can easily be skirted around. What I did notice is that he didn't really follow any of the tips that were written for the Dominion. Remember, they have very fast ship production, and thus building two shipyards really is a must. There is another game posted earlier that shows me using Bugs without ramming at all--so it is perfectly feasible to play without using that factor. Likewise, even though the Canaveral is slightly overpowered, I don't think it is necessary to resort to using ramming. You could have quite easily overwhelmed your opponent's forces early on if you had gone straight with Bugs instead of teching up that quickly. Bombers really aren't the right counter against Federation early game vessels, as the Feds rely quite a bit on destroyer type units. Likewise, bombers can't retreat effectively because of their firing arc. As Mal said, all of this is described in the guide, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem. Plus, you didn't seen any Canaverals until quite far into the game so no need for Cascade Feedback anyway
. (Mal, the tech lab had been built
)Haven't watched till the end yet, but I will write more then
EDIT: ok, watched (and finished eating)
I guess all I have to add is that some more micro would have been in order for both sides (looking at 2-3 Sensor Blackouts go spaced apart by three seconds... *cough*) as well as some unnecessary ship losses. Probably it would have been possible to go with Bombers (or preferably Breen Cruisers, since you were using the avatar... ) if you had built more turrets around not just your expansion, but main base too
. I think I'dd say the main cause of fatality here was build order, not really inherent imbalances 
posted on October 29th, 2009, 10:00 pm
Once again I agree on the Sensor Blackout issue. 75% weapon speed reduction basically renders ships impotent. Only in smaller battles where a few ships can still nail that last one running away do the numbers not matter so much.
Oh and to all who mentioned the Canav's only showing up late game: I had two earlier Canav's armed with blackout but for some reason each one behaved oddly and got itself killed. You tell it to Shift+R and it runs back to the Dom starbase. Wow.
I think the basic mistake here was going all Bombers as it provided no ability to tactically retreat. Goo seemed to realize that at some point but it was too hard to restart his economy towards bugs. I think I recall his plan was to use bombers to stop the warp-in's seeing as they will almost always be hit by torpedoes. Seeing the bombers though I just spammed the Destroyer killing Monsoons.
TO MAL:
I didn't spam Excel II's cause I was Risner Not a fan of playing Mayson till the patch. Risner is a bit more fun. Risner Excel II's aren't really as useful early on as Akira's and Monsoon's. By that point the Eraudi yard was for making a Phalanx that I didn't get to use.
Oh and to all who mentioned the Canav's only showing up late game: I had two earlier Canav's armed with blackout but for some reason each one behaved oddly and got itself killed. You tell it to Shift+R and it runs back to the Dom starbase. Wow.
I think the basic mistake here was going all Bombers as it provided no ability to tactically retreat. Goo seemed to realize that at some point but it was too hard to restart his economy towards bugs. I think I recall his plan was to use bombers to stop the warp-in's seeing as they will almost always be hit by torpedoes. Seeing the bombers though I just spammed the Destroyer killing Monsoons.
TO MAL:
I didn't spam Excel II's cause I was Risner
Not a fan of playing Mayson till the patch. Risner is a bit more fun. Risner Excel II's aren't really as useful early on as Akira's and Monsoon's. By that point the Eraudi yard was for making a Phalanx that I didn't get to use.posted on October 29th, 2009, 10:17 pm
Oh and to all who mentioned the Canav's only showing up late game: I had two earlier Canav's armed with blackout but for some reason each one behaved oddly and got itself killed. You tell it to Shift+R and it runs back to the Dom starbase. Wow.
You might have had two earlier ones, but they didn't make it into battle, so no problems there
. They are an expensive investment however, and a crowd of Bugs can easily knock them out pretty quickly and then retreat and recuperate if nothing else posted on October 29th, 2009, 10:24 pm
TO MAL:
I didn't spam Excel II's cause I was Risner Not a fan of playing Mayson till the patch. Risner is a bit more fun. Risner Excel II's aren't really as useful early on as Akira's and Monsoon's. By that point the Eraudi yard was for making a Phalanx that I didn't get to use.
Well that explains it. I didn't realize you were Risner.
posted on October 30th, 2009, 8:47 am
Dominus_Noctis wrote:I guess all I have to add is that some more micro would have been in order for both sides (looking at 2-3 Sensor Blackouts go spaced apart by three seconds... *cough*)
That was because new ships arrived that hadn't been affected
Those bombers weren't gonna last 25 seconds so I figured saving a blackout would mean unnecessary damage to my forces.as well as some unnecessary ship losses.
But don't you LOOOOVE that point where you know losing one here and there to manage your base effectively is an ok sacrifice? Means you're doin' aaaaalll right.
Probably it would have been possible to go with Bombers (or preferably Breen Cruisers, since you were using the avatar... ) if you had built more turrets around not just your expansion, but main base too
I think an early mix of bugs and bombers would have dealt with the warpins until breen cruisers were available.
I also think that the bombers missed a lot of chances to follow my ships away from his base and destroy them. I managed to save many ships (especially valuable warp-ins) by simply retreating them and not being followed. Breen would have been nicer due to the range and 360 arc. Not to mention the fact that Breen ships have ABSURD hull values (226 for a cruiser vs. 119 for a KbeajQ vs. 193 for a Galaxy)
posted on October 30th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Hehe, but you could have at least targeted closer to the station which was taking out your ships one after another 
Yeah, tis true: it's really hard to see how people manage their bases on these replays obviously, so your base just springs up like magic
.
Agreed; oftentimes it seems people don't know exactly when to persue or high tail it... which can easily swing the course of battle. Likewise, the relatively weak Breen cruisers (in terms of defensive capability) can simply fire from within the confines of the base defenses without worry of being slaughtered most of the time.
But don't you LOOOOVE that point where you know losing one here and there to manage your base effectively is an ok sacrifice? Means you're doin' aaaaalll right.
Yeah, tis true: it's really hard to see how people manage their bases on these replays obviously, so your base just springs up like magic
. I also think that the bombers missed a lot of chances to follow my ships away from his base and destroy them. I managed to save many ships (especially valuable warp-ins) by simply retreating them and not being followed....
Agreed; oftentimes it seems people don't know exactly when to persue or high tail it... which can easily swing the course of battle. Likewise, the relatively weak Breen cruisers (in terms of defensive capability) can simply fire from within the confines of the base defenses without worry of being slaughtered most of the time.
posted on October 30th, 2009, 8:08 pm
posted on October 30th, 2009, 8:13 pm
Indeed, and as Breen you should never "have" to buy supplies due to their slower ship construction.
posted on November 1st, 2009, 7:31 pm
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posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:18 pm
Last edited by yandonman on November 3rd, 2009, 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
posted on November 2nd, 2009, 6:48 pm
At first I was going to say cut Stardust some slack (at the beginning of the match) Mr. Boggz as I though he was brand new 
... but now I guess I have to say "that's what you get for not recrewing against the Borg"
I wait for the end of the match
... but now I guess I have to say "that's what you get for not recrewing against the Borg" I wait for the end of the match
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